Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

Original poster

Theresa May to end ban on grammar schools part 2

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 09/08/2016 21:47

Continuation of the first thread from here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/2702565-Theresa-May-to-end-ban-on-grammar-schools

OP posts:
sandyholme · 14/08/2016 21:03

Radio 4 does not speak for 95% of the population !.

The same could be said of this site 80-90% 'remain' voters and probably 60% Labour supporters.

The reality is the opinions on Mumsnet /Radio 4 are far away from the majority of people in the UK.

The 'Daily Mail' or Express views are representative of the where the 'mainstream' political debate is . ( that is hard to swallow for deluded posters on here) .

The posters on here continually ridicule the opinions of the people they profess to care for.

Views such as :
People only voted for 'Brexit' because they are 'Dim' or Racist.

The working class don't want grammar schools ..

What people don't want is to be lectured by privately/selectively educated posters who want to deny the 'Working' class the type of education they benefited from themselves.

The politics of 1979 have has much relevance today as the 1945 Labour government has zero...

A proposal to allow for up to 20 grammar schools and also allow pseudo grammar schools such as Dame Alice Owens to become 'full grammar schools ' will be a huge vote winner.

A 1950s or 60s 'Secondary Modern ' education does not exist today yet posters keep intimating that schools of 2020 are the same as one from 1959 !.

sandyholme · 14/08/2016 21:06

That a non 'selective' school in a selective area will offer the same education a 1959 '.Secondary Modern'

Dozer · 14/08/2016 21:10

"I haven't heard anyone calling for a return of grammars locally."

Am in the home counties. Expect it'd be popular among a subsection of the parent population if the "superselective" London/Surrey secondaries that get ten times as many applications as places (applications largely for well supported DC doing well at schooland tutored in private schools, by parents and/or tutors) expanded.

Don't think a change to a "full" grammar system would be popular though, eg top 25% of DC, because people wouldn't like the idea of secondary moderns.

Peregrina · 14/08/2016 21:11

1950s or 60s 'Secondary Modern ' education does not exist today yet posters keep intimating that schools of 2020 are the same as one from 1959 !.

No, but nor do the 50s or 60s grammar schools. Back then, there were 'Direct Grant' grammar schools, which were a cut above your average local authority grammar school. Somehow the remaining Grammars have branded themselves as though they are as good as the Direct Grant schools, rather than the others.

TaIkinPeace · 14/08/2016 21:13

goodbye
YC is a comp. My kids attended a comp.
If grammars came back YC would become a SecMod
I have absolutely no idea how the logistics of grammars would ever work in a post LEA world
but hey! that is Tory policy making for you
nearly as half arsed as Labour policy

goodbyestranger · 14/08/2016 21:37

Peregrina what do you mean 'direct grant' grammar schools?

BertrandRussell · 14/08/2016 21:38

"must admit to being confused what you mean about the design of pants?"
It is a well known scientific fact that no child wearing Boden pants on their first day at school has ever failed the 11+.

goodbyestranger · 14/08/2016 21:48

Well they bloody well all ought to fail Bertrand, simply for wearing the ghastly Boden.

goodbyestranger · 14/08/2016 21:53

Or rather Peregrina, I haven't the foggiest what you're talking about re. 'branding'. The remaining grammars are extremely different to each other in terms of academic achievement etc except obviously there are groups which are similar and I've certainly never come across any notion of 'branding' along the lines of the old direct grants. There's far too much variation in provision, value added and results.

sandyholme · 14/08/2016 21:56

Direct Grant Grammar Schools were effectively private schools that admitted a large no of the intake via the 11+ the local authority would pay the school.

Many direct grant schools choose to become 'independent'schools so that they could keep their academic selection . Manchester Grammar is a prime example of an ex direct grant grammar.

goodbyestranger · 14/08/2016 22:00

sandy yes I know very well (I was a direct grant pupil myself at a GDST) but I'm not sure Peregrina quite gets what they were - or indeed how the remaining grammars perceive themselves either. She portrays them as a single unit, which they're demonstrably not.

Peregrina · 14/08/2016 22:05

Direct Grant Schools

goodbyestranger · 14/08/2016 22:07

Hope you read your own link properly then Peregrina! (don't need to myself).

Peregrina · 14/08/2016 22:08

I do quite get what Direct Grant schools were. I think now when people think of Grammar Schools this is the sort of school they are thinking of. They are not thinking of the mediocre grammar schools that I or my brother went to.

But I am a bit bemused that people can criticise me talking about grammar schools when they are quite sure that they know all there is about the 3000 + Comprehensives.

FreshHorizons · 14/08/2016 22:10

IT won't happen. All the evidence shows that social mobility was a myth.
It will be highly unpopular with the majority of parents who either will have their child at a sec mod or will have their family divided. It was very common to have siblings at different sides of the divide and I know 2 sets of twins who were divided- very silly since nothing to choose between them.
It isn't ability- it is number of places available. Those is a bulge year will find it far more difficult to get a place.
It is loved by those who believe their child will get a place! If something isn't good enough for your child then it isn't good enough for anyone else's child!

Peregrina · 14/08/2016 22:12

Which bit of the link would you like me to read. This part about how they promoted social mobility?

"Although there was much variation, these schools as a group were middle-class institutions, with many tending to move closer to the independent schools in social composition.[34] On average, three-quarters of pupils came from white-collar homes, including 60% with fathers in management or the professions, while only 7% were children of semi-skilled or unskilled workers."

goodbyestranger · 14/08/2016 22:12

Peregrina if you read my posts I'm one of the few who stick to voicing opinions on what I actually know, so you can't get me on that one!

goodbyestranger · 14/08/2016 22:14

Peregrina you need to look at the proportion paying fees.

FreshHorizons · 14/08/2016 22:15

You only have to read Twitter to see what people really think about a return to secondary modern schools.
I try to imagine the fuss in towns and cities with successful comprehensive schools when parents are told that 20% are to be creamed off and they can't be comprehensive but are to be a secondary modern!

NotEnoughTime · 14/08/2016 22:16

Bertrand

I see what you mean now.

Thank you.

sandyholme · 14/08/2016 22:16

I suppose this is a 'bog' standard grammar than !

fortpitt.medway.sch.uk/new/

Peregrina · 14/08/2016 22:37

One of the big arguments now is that 'Grammars promote social mobility'
I haven't a clue about Kent schools but I looked up some results for Fort Pitt.

From the Ofsted dashboard for years 2012 -2014
FSM
School (all pupils): 9.9, 13.8, 14.3
National average: 26.7, 28.2, 28.5

SEN or school action plan
School (all pupils): 0.3, 0.9, 2.4
National average: 8.1, 7.7, 7.3

Lurkedforever1 · 14/08/2016 22:50

fresh but on the other hand, ask people in areas without good comprehensives, and the answer is different, because they don't have anything to lose. At a very local level people seem to be in favour. (Although I've hardly asked enough people to make it anything but anecdata). I've also discovered some people are in favour of the sm return too. The reasoning appears to be that it's better to learn a trade than waste your time when you'll never be any good at exams. Obviously there are huge flaws in that argument, but given the current outcomes for many local dc I can see why some people think that way.

KindDogsTail · 14/08/2016 22:53

In the Times two days ago there was an article saying Teresa May wanted no more than 20 new ones, in poor areas and to take a high number of children who have FSM - so not quite what is happening at the moment.

In Italy they have several kinds of schools and people do not necessarily even want to go to the Liceo Classici, the equivalent of a grammar school, as the work is so academically hard. One of those is written about in Elena Ferrante My Brilliant Friend for anyone who hasn't read it. There are two other sorts of schools. The system can only work if all the schools are good.

I am not sure how it is working out in Germany, but I think the alternatives to the Grammar can be good. Maybe some other posters know the details.

FreshHorizons · 15/08/2016 07:17

If they gave new ones in poor areas it will be very difficult to police who is 'poor' - areas tend to be close together + it will happen as it does already that children come from outside and take places away from locals.
Germany isn't just an exam- school records and parental preference comes into play.
I think it madness to separate children at 10/11 yrs without even consulting them as to preference-when they are generally too young to have one.
The exam seoarates the top from the bottom but you may as well pick the middle ones from a hat! It might be fair if it was the same mark every year and in every place in the country but a mark in one town that would send you off to a sec mod would get a grammar school where more spaces.very bad luck to be born in a bulge year!
They are generally single sex as the only way to get a balance otherwise they would be top heavy with girls.