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Theresa May to end ban on grammar schools part 2

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 09/08/2016 21:47

Continuation of the first thread from here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/2702565-Theresa-May-to-end-ban-on-grammar-schools

OP posts:
portico · 12/08/2016 11:02

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but a significant reduction in tuition fees, say back to £3K a year, would be one part of helping social mobility.

BertrandRussell · 12/08/2016 11:20

"On another point, A*s might make a huge difference to what path a young person's career might take."

You will notice that I did mention the need for a*s to get into Oxford...

I still think, that with one or two exceptions- Oxford being a notable one- the implications for a potential A* student getting As are an order of magnitude less than the implications for a potential C student getting Ds. Ds close lots of doors.

Badbadbunny · 12/08/2016 11:22

I also believe, we should try and create schools with a focus on STEM subjects.

Fully agree and one of the main reasons why my son's didn't choose one of the local comps. He's very much aiming for a science/engineering career. At most of the comp's open days, the tech rooms were proudly showing off wooden fish and metal trowels with the teacher sat in a corner playing with his phone. Whilst many of them were very good, they are hardly going to inspire kids to want to take a tech subject if that's all they are showing hence virtually no kids showing much interest. It gives the impression that there's all there is to tech!

Whereas the faith comp was showing off beautifully crafted wooden radios and a cad/cam suite with a few sixth formers and teachers inviting kids to sit and manipulate 3d images and a lego robot solving a rubik cube in a corner - the rooms were heaving with lots of excited kids, many of whom would be motivated to towards a tech subject.

The impression we came away with was that the other comps just weren't interested in tech subjects at all, hardly inspiring!

BertrandRussell · 12/08/2016 11:22

And I agree that we need STEM people in government. There would be less likelihood of a Secretary of State for Health believing in homeopathy for a start.....

Badbadbunny · 12/08/2016 11:22

Ds close lots of doors.

So do C's if most of the other applicants have B's!

BertrandRussell · 12/08/2016 11:26

There are lots of courses and jobs that require Cs- a B will not give you a better chance, but a D will put you immediately on the reject pile.

portico · 12/08/2016 11:30

Badbadbunny, my son's school has a newly built STEM centre.The head had outlined a vision a few years ago to prepare students for STEM like careers.

BaconAndAvocado · 12/08/2016 11:30

badbadbunny my DS1 didn't pass his 11+ (was way off) so went to,the local comp/secondary modern.

By Year 10 things had really started to click for him educationally and he did extremely well in his GCSEs.

Unfortunately, his school didn't offer the correct A level subjects for him to pursue his goal of a STEM subject at Degree level so he transferred to the local grammar for 6th form.

He has had positive experiences at both schools but feels he was among more like-minded students at the grammar.

Incidentally, he is very anti 11+ as he feels the kids at grammar we're exposed to much better teaching at GCSE level and so gained more GCSEs and with better grades.

noblegiraffe · 12/08/2016 11:31

Or a Secretary of State for Education who believes that all schools can be above average...

OP posts:
portico · 12/08/2016 11:37

"He has had positive experiences at both schools but feels he was among more like-minded students at the grammar.

Incidentally, he is very anti 11+ as he feels the kids at grammar were exposed to much better teaching at GCSE level and so gained more GCSEs and with better grades."

BaconAndAvocado, both my sons are at grammar school. Not all are like minded. We have disruptive kids there, I think DS1 may be one. In relation to your second point, I do not think it is always better teaching. The cohort at a grammar school is very academic and so able to absorb depth and breadth more readily.

goodbyestranger · 12/08/2016 11:38

With respect Bertrand, you're making this an either/ or which is not a great way of approaching the subject. I'm still curious to know what you, as a governor at a secondary modern, think of the exam reforms in terms of how they cater for lower ability students, because you've so far ignored that one (roundly!).

On the issue of A*s and Oxbridge: for some careers which are really quite vital to the country, Oxbridge and the training it provides, does actually matter on a societal level. It's not all about summer balls, getting drunk and punting.

BertrandRussell · 12/08/2016 11:43

" I'm still curious to know what you, as a governor at a secondary modern, think of the exam reforms in terms of how they cater for lower ability students, because you've so far ignored that one (roundly!)."
I think that they are potentially a disaster. We are very worried about what they will mean for our children- and what will have to be dropped in terms of broader learning and preparation for life in order to get some of them the qualifications they need. What did you want/expect me to say?

noblegiraffe · 12/08/2016 11:51

On the subject of MPs and STEM backgrounds, I don't think we have moved on much from CP Snow's Two Cultures over 50 years ago:

"A good many times I have been present at gatherings of people who, by the standards of the traditional culture, are thought highly educated and who have with considerable gusto been expressing their incredulity at the illiteracy of scientists. Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is the scientific equivalent of: Have you read a work of Shakespeare’s?

I now believe that if I had asked an even simpler question — such as, What do you mean by mass, or acceleration, which is the scientific equivalent of saying, Can you read? — not more than one in ten of the highly educated would have felt that I was speaking the same language. So the great edifice of modern physics goes up, and the majority of the cleverest people in the western world have about as much insight into it as their neolithic ancestors would have had."

I just looked up David Cameron's A-Levels. He would seem to be a remarkably intelligent and well-educated individual - he did History of Art,
History and Economics with Politics. I guess without his background people would look at that selection and say 'so you don't want to be able to get a job then?'

OP posts:
DoctorDonnaNoble · 12/08/2016 11:58

And I hate that attitude Noble. I love Science. It is really important that we all have an interest in how the world works. It's a relatively new thing as well. Shakespeare, for example, was interested in the latest developments. Many writers are (eg Ian McEwan). Not sure why more people don't have breadth.

BertrandRussell · 12/08/2016 12:08

I think there is still an attitude among the "great and the good" that scientists are somehow grubby little déclassé technicians - who needs chemistry when you've got Classics? It would have been unusual for anyone of Cameron's age and class to do sciences. The whole idea of "learning to think" rather than "learning stuff" still permeates English society. It's one of the reasons people are so dismissive of things like BTecs.

GetAHaircutCarl · 12/08/2016 12:13

I think the current generation of public schoolers are very different.

I think maths if the most popular subject in sixth form at DC's school. And a huge proportion do FM and sciences.

I bet it's the same at Eton ( where Dave went to school).

noblegiraffe · 12/08/2016 12:14

I do think the two cultures thing is partly to blame for the 'let's send the bright kids to academic schools where they can study Latin, and let's send the less academic kids to a vocational technical school where they can learn STEM stuff' attitude as if STEM is about being a car mechanic, and Classics at Oxbridge is the best outcome for bright kid. A basic misunderstanding of what is needed in STEM careers.

If we look at practical solutions to the world's problems, where are they coming from? Bill Gates getting on with eradicating polio and Guinea worm. Elon Musk determined to fix the Earth (TESLA and renewable energy) while at the same time giving us the means to leave it if we totally screw it up (SpaceX). These are not the less able.

OP posts:
haybott · 12/08/2016 12:19

I think potential STEM jobs will not just be accessible to graduates.

But many STEM jobs will require graduate level STEM education, as specific STEM knowledge and skills are needed. There are postgraduate qualifications offered for non-STEM graduates to train in specific STEM areas but for many STEM jobs you do need a background of scientific education at A level and degree level to apply.

Sometime people complain there is too much emphasis on STEM but if you look at the actual statistics we produce very few STEM graduates. We produce twice as many history graduates as physics graduates each year, for example. Both history and physics graduates have useful transferrable skills but there are quite a few jobs requiring physics specific skills for which we have severe recruitment problems due to the low number of physics graduates available.

Badbadbunny · 12/08/2016 12:20

do think the two cultures thing is partly to blame for the 'let's send the bright kids to academic schools where they can study Latin, and let's send the less academic kids to a vocational technical school where they can learn STEM stuff' attitude as if STEM is about being a car mechanic, and Classics at Oxbridge is the best outcome for bright kid. A basic misunderstanding of what is needed in STEM careers.

Stereotypical nonsense. At our local grammar, just 6 took Latin at A level compared with 53 taking chemistry, 41 taking biology, 53 taking physics, 95 taking Maths. So far, far higher numbers taking STEM subjects and relatively tiny numbers taking Latin!

BertrandRussell · 12/08/2016 12:22

"I think the current generation of public schoolers are very different"

That's good to hear. It doesn't square with my personal experience, but as I keep saying "anecdote is not data"!

noblegiraffe · 12/08/2016 12:23

Stereotypical nonsense

But it's not. Grammar schools offering Latin to the most able (or being able to offer Latin) has come up on this thread, as has 'shunt off the less able to vocational schools where they can do technical stuff' more than once.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 12/08/2016 12:24

I think "schools where they can study Latin" is a catchall expression for a particular type of school, not to be taken literally. As in "schools where they do vocational subjects"........

haybott · 12/08/2016 12:24

I think maths if the most popular subject in sixth form at DC's school. And a huge proportion do FM and sciences.

But many of them still go onto PPE, Economics, Law etc at university.

In twenty odd years in academia I've met one Etonian who studied maths (Tim Gowers, a Fields medallist) but I've met many more at Oxbridge studying subjects such as Economics, Law etc. I've known some doing STEM from Curl's school but they also seem to prefer doing other subjects.

BertrandRussell · 12/08/2016 12:25

That has to be the best example of "Mumsnet Snap" I have ever seen!

GetAHaircutCarl · 12/08/2016 12:26

Having Latin on the curriculum does not preclude STEM.

The two work perfectly well together.

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