Theresa May to end ban on grammar schools part 2

[noblegiraffe]

Continuation of the first thread from here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/2702565-Theresa-May-to-end-ban-on-grammar-schools

noble we don't just educate our young for what the country needs. By that measure many hard to teach children would receive very little at all.

We educate our DC to the best of our ability because it's better fur society.

As a teacher you must see that every child should receive the education in line with their needs?

Or like bert do you not really see the point of A*s unless they lead to something specific?

But all that aside, it is not just courses in STEM that are competitive. At the most selective universities (and on some particularly well regarded courses at other generally less selective courses) only top grades will get you a place.

Tertiary education is virtually a tiered system and these courses are the top tier.

And it's from this tier that the industries with the most impact on all our lives at a macro level pick the next generation.

Now you tell me that it's not important for that tier to contain the very best minds we have or for that tier to include people from all sections of society.

Currently we leave this field far too open for the posh boys ( and it say that as the proud owner of one myself).

As for the 11+ discouraging small business. This surely is the daftest argument of them all.

Is there any evidence that Kent or Bucks have a particular shortage of small business people compared to wholly comprehensive area? .

"Or like bert do you not really see the point of A*s unless they lead to something specific?"

I do see the point in terms of pure academic achievement.

My point is that there are huge practical implications for a child who could get Cs but doesn't. Or who could actually get any grade at all on the certificates, but doesn't. There are very few practical implications for a child who could get A*s but gets As. So it seems to me that in a world of limited resources for the good of society at large, more focus should be put on the first group than the second. In a ideal world, there would be enough resources for everyone to do everything. But there aren't. And I have no problem at all saying to my ambitious,able, privileged and well supported ds "If you want results like your sister's, you may have to put a bit more effort in yourself, because your teachers are spread very thin indeed, and hers weren't. And you've got mates who need them more than you do." It may not be fair, but it's a bloody sight fairer than the other way around.

And think of all the small tutoring businesses the 11+ creates.............

Plenty of small businesses in Chatham:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2309058/Chatham-Kent-affluent-South-East-astonishing-23-pay-day-loan-stores.html

These grammar schools are not truly, truly awful, it's the areas they are situated in - Chatham ranks amongst the worst 10% of deprived wards in the country.

Progress in English at Chatham Grammar for Girls was 86% in 2014 so the 2015 figures may be a blip. Behaviour and safety at the school was rated outstanding - I can think of many schools I would rather not send my child to.

GetAHaircutCarl Fri 12-Aug-16 08:01:39 We educate our DC to the best of our ability because it's better fur society.

I have to admit, I didn't really think of the bigger picture i.e. doing what's best for society, when choosing a school for my DC (yes I was one of the lucky ones who could actually choose). I was thinking more along the lines of a school my DC would be happy at. I believe that if a DC is happy they will perform better overall. I don't think getting all A* would necessarily make my DC happy (with the exception of results day possibly) but a relaxed, supportive school environment would.

I'm assuming you are also very much in support of private and faith schools then too?

Oh, ffs, I did not "sneer" at Rolls Royce................

Betrand - your intention may not have been to be sneering but in the written word just about all your posts written in response to what I have said have come across as sneering. And that one came across as if you thought that all Rolls Royce did was build overpriced cars.

Boston High also offers vocational options in the sixth form . That is bad news for the other local schools (what can they offer for sixth form if Boston High are recruiting for vocational as well as A levels).

The top 25% of the ability range obviously means different things in different areas ! Boston High got 96% GCSE in 2015 but grammar school 'ratings' should not include C grade GCSE.

Really? I honestly didn't mean it to sound that way- it was just a joky word. And I did explain myself later.

My point was that I have heard so many grammar school supporters saying "Look, we really do cater for everybody! We have vocational subjects! One of ours even did an apprenticeship instead of going to University! They all do work experience!" And the work experience is always in something like a merchant bank, or (like my dd's, courtesy of her godmother) in the fashion section of a Sunday newspaper. So of course the apprenticeship had to be with a top engineering firm.....It just made me laugh because it was so predictable.

2StripedSocks My dp struggles to get the people in IT that he needs.

Which area of IT does your DP work in? Almost all of mine and DHs friends are in IT as we have spent most of our working life in IT or interacting with IT departments (my DH worked for Microsoft for a number of years and I worked for Gartner for quite a while).

There are very few practical implications for a child who could get A stars but gets As.

Not entirely true. Somebody who carries on to STEM A levels with As at GCSEs is likely to get lower grades at A level, which affects their university choices. The very top universities do select partly on the basis of GCSE scores, so having As rather than A stars decreases the chance of getting in.

Attending a university ranked 10-30 rather than a top 5 university does then have a knock effect on graduate prospects. E.g. I consult for a large financial organisation which recruits maths graduates almost entirely from the top half dozen universities only because they are looking for skills which are pretty much only acquired by the top graduates.

More generally, underperformance in STEM (and perhaps in other areas too) is a huge issue for the UK. We have skills shortages in these areas and quite a lot of EU and non-EU immigration is based around dealing with these shortages.

Those not in favour of grammars do have to address the fact that high ability pupils in some comprehensives under-achieve, and that getting As/Bs rather than top grades does affect their future prospects and the economy as a whole.

I don't intend to sound sneering. But then I don't suppose the grammar supporters intend to sound smug and "I'm all right Jack" ish. So perhaps no more ad hominems?

Donna. There is a lot of general misunderstanding about Rolls Royce . Recently i heard someone on the radio describe 'Rolls Royce' being being a german company.

This is because due to ignorance many people do not know Rolls Royce engines in Derby is a world leader in producing aeroplane engines and has absolutely nothing to do with Rolls Royce cars.

They have actually benefited from the reduction in value of the pound, because their engines are now good value when compared to Prat and Whitley or General Electric ones.

Sorry it was predictable. It was genuinely unusual for us. Most engineers (even the ones who prefer practical work) head to Imperial or Bath from our place. We've sent actors to drama school (although most of those now give accredited degrees) musicians to Royal College etc. We offer as wide a range as we can for a small, underfunded (aren't they all) secondary. Most people would say we don't do any vocational courses, our (stuck in the past - different story) chair of governors would point to Economics and Computing A Level and disagree (he's an 'interesting') trap.
But yes, you came across as quite personally dismissive.

sandyholme Boston High got 96% GCSE in 2015 but grammar school 'ratings' should not include C grade GCSE

Which is why the expected progress measure may give a better picture as to how good the school is. Afer all 100% A*-C including maths & english could acutally mean 100% got Cs (granted that's unikely).

2StripedSocks Out of interest did you work in Seattle with Microsoft at all,dp has other family members who did.

I didn't work there DH did. He was based in the UK but had to travel to the US regularly.

striped We can't expect kids to walk out of school with IT qualifications fit for their whole career,it doesn't work

You realise that kids are walking out of school with no IT qualifications? Even ones who want to go into IT? There's such a severe shortage of computing teachers that schools can't offer it. The STEM shortage starts in schools, and even before you can inspire people in a subject, encourage girls to take it up, give people ideas of the possibilities that are available in that subject, you need teachers who know what they're talking about.

Bertrand- sorry for the cross post.

One of the reasons for our grammars success is the high expectations we have. I was told off on my PGCE for having expectations that were too high - this was in training and my second placement. My first placement (in Hayes and Harlington) was different. High expectations of all sets. Was fantastic and I love it.
There are schools with a culture of mediocre expectations. Expect a child to their best and they often do, expect them to be rubbish and why should they bother (I had a colleague who wrote students off in year 7, she's no longer with us.). There is a cultural issue that needs addressing. Grammar school are a sticking plaster on a gaping wound and damn straight all pupils, in all types of school, should be expected to try and perform at the best of their ability.

Apology for the missing apostrophe in my post. Husband was talking to me whilst I was typing.

mum when I said 'we' I guess I meant we as a society.

So we as a society aim to educate our young people to the best of their ability for the good of society as a whole.

On a personal level of course we all try to do right by our own kids. We live in an imperfect world and have to make pragmatic decisions within that (which is why I don't criticise for example talkin for driving past 'Yob Central'. I just wish the same courtesy could be extended to other people also making choices).

I made choices for my DC's education based absolutely on what would make them happy (in my view) and on what I value. Their grades have been part of that (and will hopefully prove useful to them in the future) but it was the day to day experience I was more bothered about.

Am I in favour of private schools? Well I certainly wouldn't abolish them. I've used them for my DC. Is it fair that all children that type of education? No, although I am utterly certain many people would not choose it even if they had the cash and access.

Re faith schools. I'm torn here. I can see that it must be bloody galling to find that you can't use your local school because of the faith element. On the other hand, I do think that religions can be 'a community' and a very supportive one at that.