Theresa May to end ban on grammar schools part 2

[noblegiraffe]

Continuation of the first thread from here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/2702565-Theresa-May-to-end-ban-on-grammar-schools

we are not having a discussion about the best way forward to educate the whole population for the 21st Century.

But what do you propose? What should be to improve the current system, if not grammars? Which school system around the world would you like to copy? (Australia was given as one example, but they definitely have selection by postcode and wallet there too.)

In most countries that I know (and as an academic I have worked in many countries, admitted students from many different countries), good provision for high ability children is found in academically selective schools and good provision for the bottom ability tier is problematic. Some other countries have good technical and vocational schools but one could still criticise the fact that children are sent on technical/vocational routes too early.

haybott Thu 11-Aug-16 19:52:30 Which school system around the world would you like to copy?

How many Countries are trying to copy our Grammar system?

goodbyestranger Thu 11-Aug-16 19:51:24 Well I didn't Mum. I got a Direct Grant scholarship through the 11+ to a London GDST.

Ooh, am I the only one then. I feel quite special now.

I think I have made it clear that I would like to see the good comprehensives copied to see what they are doing right: usually good management for one, and a balanced intake for another seem to be a couple of prerequisites.

good provision for high ability children is found in academically selective schools
And good comprehensives and even average ones at times, but with some honourable exceptions, MNers are reluctant to admit that such Comprehensives exist, and even fewer want to admit that not all grammars were/are good.

and good provision for the bottom ability tier is problematic.
Once again a whole swathe of children are dismissed.

The tripartite system - of which Grammar schools were one part - met a perceived need of the 1940's.
State funded Grammar schools only existed for a short window between 1948 and the late 70's
During that time lots of meejah commentators got their breaks and so fed a view that Grammars were just wonderful.
In the long run there was no evidence for that view.

Pre 1948 the school leaving age was under 14 as most kids had manual unskilled jobs.

Since then the school leaving age has steadily risen to now 18
with a default of 21 for those wanting careers rather than jobs
(NB I include those doing courses like Sparsholt and Southampton City College and Totton Colege and Eastleigh College in the 21 year olds - A levels are just a small part)

THe sorts of people who think the return to grammars is a good idea are often (in real life) the ones who think points based immigration is a good idea
while forgetting that most immigrants pick vegetables, swab toilets and cut up dead animals for supermarkets.

Grammars are like Hinkley - they deal with the problems of yesteryear, not where we are now.

Comprehensive schooling that allows flexibility between outcomes is by far the best way to go.
If only we could get rid of parental faith selection on kids we'd get even better outcomes.

PS :
I am very open about not choosing my local comp for my kids.
I chose the next comp along
( the form says list 3 schools and its all done on distance - I did not pull strings )
My local school replaced two schools, locally known as YC1 and YC2.
YC1 was beyond hope.
YC2 was bearable.
Then they merged and were handed to an evangelical MAT against the wishes of every parent in the area.
I would have failed my kids utterly if I had sent them to a school I had campaigned against and which I knew would fail due to the weakness of its management.
So I sent them to the next school, along with 500 other families from my catchment.
I was not running away from the kids - they all came too.
I was running away from the governance.
no MFL teachers at all for 3 terms, no science teachers at all for 2 terms
If you think I was wrong in any way to avoid a school that I (and many others) believe should not exist, I ask you what you would have done?

TaIkinPeace If you think I was wrong in any way to avoid a school that I (and many others) believe should not exist, I ask you what you would have done?

I would have done the same.

The type of children some posters are trying to 'save' are certainly not helped by 'unskilled ' immigration in to the uk.

Talkinpeace. The only thing unskilled immigration does it make it harder for children with low academic ability to find employment or able to make ends meet!

I find it quite remarkable that some posters go on about trying to help low ability or deprived children .

They then argue in favor for types of immigration which specifically reduce wages or working conditions for the jobs low ability children would be aiming for.

I love to know what 'Brexit' has to do with grammar schools !

One of the problems was that the Tripartite system was barely implemented. I think there would have been a lot less dissatisfaction if it had been. Such schools still taught science and languages alongside the more technical skills and put children in for public exams.

Grammars are like Hinkley - they deal with the problems of yesteryear, not where we are now.
My thoughts exactly.

sandyholme jobs low ability children would be aiming for.

Aim for or end up with?

I doubt very much many, if any, children have aspirations of picking vegetables (well maybe wanting to be a farmer), swabing toilets and cutting up dead animals for supermarkets when the grow up. Certainly there was no mention of that in my DCs yr 6 leavers year book. There were a few Vets, Doctors, musician, dancers etc. but no cleaning loos etc.

sandyholme
Brexit has everything to do with Grammar schools.

THe UK has imported labour to do shitty jobs for well over 100 years.
Veg picking used to be done by gypsies.
Now its done by Lithuanians.
Brits do not want that work and many of those on the dole are not physically able to do that work.
Immigrants cannot suppress wages below the legal minimum.
If the UK wants cheap UK grown strawberries it has to accept the 100,000 EU migrants that come with them.

I have not pushed my kids to do well in exams to have them strapped to a tractor picking cabbages in the snow.
I'm happy for immigrants to do that for a few months a year each.
I'm also happy to buy green beans from Tanzanian farmers who are able to sell to the whole of the EU

I am an immigrant myself after all.

Veg picking used to be done by gypsies.
Yup, and we know how people love having a gypsy camp near them.

Immigrants cannot suppress wages below the legal minimum.

No but unscrupulous employers can. The answer here was to have the existing legislation more strictly enforced. But we can't have that because it's bureaucracy...
Again, in those areas which did have high levels of immigration, more attempt should have been to acknowledge this, and to deal with the problems it caused.

And to get back to the topic, how would a new raft of grammar schools help gypsy and traveller children? A friend specialised in teaching these groups - no longer, the funding has been cut.

Realistically how many 'graduate' level jobs are available in the uk !

Hang on perhaps 'Corybyn' can Paraphrase Harold Wilson and he will guarantee a 'Graduate' job for all if he is elected PM.

After all a Comprehensive is a grammar school for all.....

Selective education harms those who are not academic.
It devalues their skills
That is why I'm against it.
Many of my clients are non academic but are successful businessmen.
the 11+ would have deemed them failures
They keep the economy running smoothly.

The increase in school leaving age and degrees for everything is just a Ponzi scheme to defer entry to the labour force and reduce unemployment.

2StripedSocks Sen kids have their needs covered

I have a high ability DC with SEN, please do tell me more.

2StripedSocks sporty kids get their needs covered

Care to elaborate?

Sen kids have their needs covered

Ask any parent with a child with SEN, how well their needs are covered. A cousin's son has severe special needs. According to his Dad it's one long fight to get the resources for him.

2StripedSocks Thu 11-Aug-16 21:40:14 Children with Sen and pp get extra money spent on them

The only additional money my DC with SEN gets spent on them is mine.

why on earth are grammar schools supposed to cure the ills of society?

Well, come on, you tell us. All those of you arguing how wonderful they are. So far you have only been able to argue that they may be or are better for a relative handful of children.

As a parent, it's a poor parent who doesn't try to get what they see as the best for their children. As Government policy - look after 25% and to hell with the rest? Not a good policy. As even the Tories will find out.

TalkinPeace I can quite see why you would avoid a school with management which is completely crap but to come out with the moniker 'Yob Central' is just revolting. It conflicts utterly with your affected social concern.

Peregrina As Government policy - look after 25% and to hell with the rest? Not a good policy. As even the Tories will find out.

How many new Grammar Schools would need to be opened for it to be 25%

What many Grammar supporters don't seem to realise is that there may be new Grammar Schools but they not be in areas they can access. In which case they won't be any better off.

Peregrina as always one side parodies the other but the reality is that a society has to educate its most able or it will fail. Far better that those in strong leadership positions come from a range of backgrounds and not from a self-perpetuating elite.

Are comprehensives working for DC of typical ability? (I mean DC within one standard deviation of the mean intelligence.)

Is society not educating its most able? As I understand it, the hardest to get into courses at uni in terms of grades are medicine and vet science, and they are hugely oversubscribed - way more applicants than places.

So where are we missing out? We know there's a STEM shortage. The problem of increasing the number of STEM graduates won't be solved by grammar schools - there's a huge shortage of maths and physics teachers who won't be magicked up by creating new schools. And if the best maths and physics teachers get taken off to grammar schools to educate the brightest in order to turn them into the next Dyson, then what of the middle ability kids who need maths? The STEM shortage needs addressing with more qualified teachers, not a different school system.