atheists/agnostics - how do you cope with the Christian slant in primary schools?

[geekgrrl]

I'm curious how other non-believers deal with this. Dh is a passionate atheist, I just don't care much either way. We have both been brought up as atheists. Dd (nearly 5) attends a state primary school. She went to a Catholic school for a term and of course there was a strong focus on Catholicism, which is fair enough! We moved her because she was being bullied, not because of the religious aspect.
However, I have been surprised and dismayed by how much focus there is on Christianity at the state school she attends. She prays daily and really believes in god now it seems. To be honest I am a bit freaked out by this - she is being indoctrinated. I don't want to upset her so I don't get into discussions with her, but dh feels strongly about it all and we had a bit of an upset before Easter when she was the only child who didn't attend the Easter service at the village church (dh didn't want her to).
I want dd to know about the different religions, she has a children's bible etc., but I really dislike the way it's being taught as 'the truth', rather than something some people choose to believe.
The Easter church visit had been stressing dd out for weeks because her teacher had said they were going to 'praise the lord' - dd was in tears saying 'I don't know how to praiselord mummy!'. Took me ages to work out what on earth she was on about! I just wish they could keep religion out of schools. I don't even want her to go to Brownies now because she'll just get another dose of it there.
I'm really happy with the school otherwise and don't want to rock the boat, but how can I provide a counterweight at home?

Hi geekgrrl! How are you.

I think I saw you in Asda a couple of weeks ago, but not sure if it was you. Didn't feel brave enough to go up to stranger in Asda and say 'are you geekgrrl?'

Can't offer any advice on this one I'm afraid, but sure someone will. It's a tough one but good luck.

We are both non religious despite both being brought up as Catholics.
We too brought up ds aware of different religions, and this is taught in school too, as is RE, neither of his schools have had ahuge emphasis on religion, but one zealoux RE teacher sent the pupils home with some probing questions once when ds was 6... he came home and my brother was there - a devout atheist LOL
When he told my brother the story of the earths beginnings, my Brother replies
" who the hell told you that crock of shit, ask your teacher about Stephen Hawking and the Big Bang theory, way down Mexico way"

The next week, ds brought home his homelink book with the comments
Your son seems hellbent on being our youngest sceptic...
He went through a phase of drawing churches though too, which freaked us out a bit.
I think it is healthy for kids to be aware of the bible and its teachings as it the basis of our law and society, like it or not.
But I treat it as a famous work of fiction nowadays, I think children choose their won ways from what they learn, many children embrace religion at a young age only to rebel and discard it later on...
i'm sure it will be ok for you

Don't know if this helps, but whenever a religious question comes up in our house DD asks Daddy what he thinks, and me what I think. She invariably gets different answers from us both (I am broadly Christian, DH is staunchly atheist) but neither one of us says we are right - just, "Mummy believes....." or "Daddy believes...". She seems to cope well with this, and as we live in a multicultural area she often sees people who dress or act a little differently from us because of their religions, and asks us questions about what they believe. She is only four, but I think has a great concept of a multi-faith world. Mind you, at Easter she did creep over to her Dad and tell him "Daddy, you know that thing Mummy believes about Jesus coming back to life after three days? Well, actually, I don't think he did." I think kids should get a clear steer from home - then I don't honestly think the school can change it.

geekgirl - I definitely think think that state-run schools should be teaching ABOUT different faiths not teaching that one faith is the right one. We'll be facing all this in a few years time when my dd d (now nearly 2) goes to school. As I said on another thread recently she may even end up going to a church of england school because it will be our closest school. I love the idea of her going to school without even crossing a road, plus attending school with all the other kids on our street who will definitely go there.

Anyway - am rambling. On the Brownies front - I have the same problem as you. Do you have a Woodcraft folk group? That's always sounded like a great alternative to me, and my partner went when he was younger.

I don't see any harm in children going through a "baby Jesus" phase and enjoying singing hymns but agree that teaching should be about all faiths although not sure that's appropriate in detail at junior school. I'm from a staunch atheist home and continue to be staunch atheist but I always enjoyed singing hymns, Christmas imagery and, now I'm older, religious architecture and art etc. I think I would take it with a pinch of salt usually except this particular school sounds rather extreme. Can you speak to the Teacher or the Head or some other parents to see what they think? I couldn't join Brownies, now 35 years ago, because I didn't know the Lord's Prayer or the National Anthem! I always wore my exclusion with pride (influenced by my parents at the time of course).

Kids learn what they see their parents living. I grew up a determined atheist in spite of what they tried to teach me at school, because I thought my parents knew everything, and thats what they are. As an adult I looked into different religions, made my own decision and became a Christian.

It is difficult to teach "this is what some people believe" rather than "this is the truth" if you genuinely believe it is the truth. You can say "this is the truth but some people think differently" but thats as far as you can go, if you really do believe it. It would be like me telling dd "some people believe the grass is green". The nearest I could get is "the grass is green but some people believe it is pink". If you believe, you believe.

I too am an atheist and my children are in a school with quite a strong religious focus (multifaith to some extent). I have to say that I don't mind. If when they are older they wish to access Christianity (or anything else) then they will have some idea of how to do that. I agree its difficult when one point of view is put forward as 'the truth'but my children seem to both find it comforting and not have a problem with the fact I don't believe it. by the way, what does lol mean please??

A different point of view, which doesn't exactly answer the question you asked: I think kids come to an age enventually where they make up their own minds on religion.

At this point they can opt out if they have been brought up to beleive or vice versa. It is probably easier to opt out than in, so for this reason personally I have no objection to primary schools teaching children to believe. I also back the teaching of religion as this is part of our literary and cultural heritage and our nation's history.

Dp & I both non-believers - him especially so in reaction to his happy clappy mum!

we've been through this with all ours and currently going through it with ds2 who shouted downstairs a few nights ago and asked dh if he believed in God. Ds2 and dd2 had been talking in bedrom and dd2 knows dh doesn't believe in god and ds2 was horrified. I remember when our ds1 now 12 went to school and he was introduced to religion and came home with all sorts of stories and because it was all new to him he was fascinated. Try not to make a big deal of it. My kids have mved schools ( hse move) but they use to have prayers before lunch and at home time but is never bothered them. They are at state school now and I sometimes miss church connection.

my dd attends a community primary school & comes home talking about jesus quite a bit. im an agnostic & sometimes feel they are going a bit too far with the religion, but im not too worried about it.
my school was very highly religious although not catholic. i remember role playing having communion as a child. i also went to sunday school every week, my mother sent us but never attended church herself (which was a bit hipocritical i suppose) when i was old enough i refused to go anymore as i felt id had it rammed down my throat enough.
the religious part of my schooling never bothered me though & it certainly didnt do me any harm.

Well as strongly atheist parents we've managed to produce one who thinks "it was all a big bang and then monkeys and evolution wasn't it" and one who proudly says "I'm a Christain because I eat hot cross buns; can i say grace before dinner please?" - so we just smile, tolerate both and do the "some people believe routine" to both of them. They do go to brownies though; little one devoutly promising love to God and big one metaphorically gritting her teeth and crossing her fingers to it all but off camping so wants to stay in brownies despite religion!

thanks for all the responses, it's good to hear other people's take on this. I hope dd grows up to be a sceptic, but it sounds like it's just the luck of the draw! Dh has a real bee in his bonnet about religion in an organised nature and I just find it a bit creepy how it is part of so much of what dd does at school. I went to primary school in Germany and it was all totally secular - Jesus & Co were only mentioned in RE lessons, which I would prefer for dd. I read recently though that there might a change in the law to abolish to requirement for daily Christian worship in state schools as it is not a reflection of modern British society.

Ahhh Northerner, I think I saw you too! Silly, aren't we?! Was your ds about to break some sunglasses? Mine stayed happy in the clothes aisles and then required carrying for the rest of the shopping trip. I can't stand asda on weekends.

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I don't think that MN'ers think that its wrong to pass on Christian beliefs to their own children, and reverse the position for atheists.

But I do, and I suspect others also might have a big problem with people trying to pass their beliefs onto MY very young children. I'm not talking to THEIR children every day saying "Of course, the Bible is wrong, and there is no worth in anything other than a purely evidential scientific belief in Big Bang etc". In fact, I'm not saying that to my children either.

But, as I said on the other thread, any more "Jesus dies to save us from our sins" being piped up by a 5 year old, and I may yet become an evangelical atheist and start trying to convert passers by with my own "good news". Ok, a flippant remark, but I'm only asking for my children to be left alone!

geekgrrl I wouldn;t worry I suspect in the end your influence will be greater. I grew up with an atheist father and an agnostic mother. I lived in a village with a very active church and between about 9 and 13 went through a very religious phase. I never came under any pressure from my parents - they just let me get on with it- and now I am atheist.

Like Davros I like hymns, carols and church architecture. When we got married I very much wanted to get married in the church I had been involved in. Partly I think becuase it is a truly beautiful place and partly because it was tied up in my child, and actually despite not believing I still think that particular church is a rather special place. It's the only church I know where ds1 would be welcomed, and the only church I would take him to.

Anyway point being, I'd leave her alone. Young children think very much in black and white. Teacher told them about baby Jesus so it must be right. But I don't think this type of thought continues as they grow. She will be able to make up her own mind - never mind what she's been taught at school age 5 iyswim.

gumdrop thank you - that is just what I was trying to get out. I really don't give a hoot what other people tell their own children, but object to something as fundamental as religion being imposed upon MINE by others. Particularly considering we disagree with it.

here here! we will encounter state education from sept, and i want to help equip the children with the knowledge to make up their own minds, so will have to teach the basis of christianity etc. Any recommendations on books to kick start this?

I've spent more hours than I care to think about both on here and in RL talking about this. It's a subject that a lot of people have a complete blind spot about.

I object very strongly to my children being asked to say Christian prayers at school, and being taught Christianity as fact. I have no problem with them being taught about Christianity and all other faiths - in fact I think this is a vital part of their education. I just don't want them to be taught to "do" it!

And I hate the fact that by law state school assemblies have to "broadly Christian" in nature, and that the only way you can avoid praying is to withdraw your child from assembly. Actually, by law only 51% of them have be be "broadly Christian" but most people don't know that!

I really think a young child cannot critically deal with these issues. A 5 year old can not deal with the concept of belief being different to fact, mine couldn't - and it's clear from these threads that they were not that unusual. And I strongly believe we should hold off on RE till at least Junior school - when kids are more able to accept the idea of different people have different beliefs and that's OK.

We struggled with the indoctrination of both our kids in Reception and Year 1 and their confusion over what the teacher said and what they knew to be true at home.

Anyway, give them a year or two and it becomes easier to help your child think through what they are taught at school, they get the concept of belief, they can grasp the idea that people use the Bible to explain the origins of life but it's just one explanation that people have been drawn too.

In school the teachers won't/can't talk about non-believers but as they get older the kids have more of an ability to express how they feel and I fuel their confidence in expressing that belief as a fundamental right of expression. They have now realised that they are surrounded by atheists in their class, as well as Christians and it no longer matters that they are different.

They go to Beavers and while there is a God element - my dc's are used to winging it, they do it every day in school during the collective worship in assembly. I know the leaders well and have great respect for them. Thet are not in the business of conversion.

And a teacher who cannot express faith in terms of "some people believe" should not be teaching children RE in a State School.

"She prays daily and really believes in god now it seems. To be honest I am a bit freaked out by this - she is being indoctrinated."

When my DD was in Junior she had a nice group of friends who got on really well but at the end of Y6 she went to a different Secondary school. They bought her a lovely "Forever Friends" present and kept in touch for a while but, because they didn't see each other every day, the friendship faded. This is a common experience.
Don't you think that it is the same for Primary religious teaching? Whilst they are caught up in the day-to-day prayers etc they might think that they believe (bearing in mind that it a very complex concept that adults struggle with!) but give them a change of scenery and their view may change.

I am agnostic but I think that it is important that children are taught about Christianity because it is such a huge part of our country's historical, legal, cultural, artistic, musical, philosophical, etc etc etc background.

I have enough confidence in my children that I believe they will find their own way whether it is religious, atheist or agnostic. Chill!

"I am agnostic but I think that it is important that children are taught about Christianity because it is such a huge part of our country's historical, legal, cultural, artistic, musical, philosophical, etc etc etc background."

I agree. But I don't think this means that they should be actually practitising Christianity in schools. That's where these threads always end up going wrong - there are a lot of people who think that if you don't want them to pray you also don't want them to learn about religion. The two things are completely separate.

I find this attitude really

To have a Christian faith brings great fullness and joy to your life. Why would a loving parent not want this for their child?

Children (and adults) either respond or not to the invite into the Christian faith. If they do respond, their lives are enriched beyond measure.

The Christian message is not evil. It fundamentally about love. The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Surely these are attributes we want our children to have?

I think you have to stop thinking about yourself and celebrate the fact that your child is getting something positive out of their flirt with faith.

But people get huge joy and positivity from worshipping the Mother Goddess too - I suspect you would not be happy if your child came home from school saying that he had helped light the Beltane Fires that day!