honest help needed

[hmb]

I'd like some honest, helpful feedback please. Pleas don't let this become a 'slag off teachers' thread as I'm asking for some help

I have two boys in Y7 who are very disruptive. Neither has SEN, and neither is so bright that they are bored with the work. These are two 'normal' (for want of a better word and meaning no offense) boys who do not want to work. They don't work in my lessons or anyone elses. When I'm explaining things they chat, clown around and disrupt. When set tasks they do no work unless I stand behind them. They are capable of doing so much better.

The mother of one has voiced her worries and has said that her ds is playing up badly at home.

This is the help I need. As Mothers what would you want the teacher to do at this point? I've tried being positive, praisinf approriate behaviour where I see it. I've tried 'tuning out' low level attention seaking (and this has made things much worse. Notes sent home. I've given 5 minute DT as break and lunch time. I don't want to come down heavy, but that seems to be the way that things are going. Help! What would you want me to do????

Whithout doubt you are the most offensive and unpleasent poster on Mumsnet. I don't give a damn what you think about me. So go blow it out your ass.

that wasn't to you lou! we cross posted

Phew!

hmb - it sounds like you have gone about things really well and , ont he whole, in a way in which many of the posters here agree with.

robinw - I am concerned about you posting on many of these education threads now. Your first post was fine but the latter is out of order and not constructive or helpful in any wy. Infact in many ways it is simply seeking a reaction and being offensive. You have said before that you have a problem with teachers. If that is still the case could you simply not restrict your postings to threads wehre you can support and advice politely (as stated in the MN 'rules'. MN is not here for deliberating offending other people / professions - it is here to help, support and advice.

I haven't previously posted on this thread but over the last couple of days have read it with interest, mainly to see the teachers side of things. I too have unfortunately had previous teacher problems with regards to my dss but I would never attack another teacher on mumsnet for it and wholeheartedly agree with the approach that hmb has taken. Well done hmb.

robin, to be honest I just don't know if the girls and their parents feel they suffer for the boys education. No one has ever come up to me and said this.

I have to admit, when my son has told me he had to sit next to 'x' it has worried me. I do wonder if 'x' is ok about this arrangement. I do know the parents of my sons best school friend, a very good boy, are very keen on the two boys seeing each other. In the past I have raised the topic a few times - thanking their son for helping to keep mine in line - and they have said it's no problem, they really like my son and invite him over for tea every few weeks.

When my son was being more disruptive in the classroom, he spent lots of lessons sitting apart. In year 3 and 4 his regular seat was away from the groups, so I guess the teacher was sensitive to the needs of the good children. He gradually worked in groups more and more, and as far as I know, the teachers kept close tabs on things. I can imagine in a situation with an ineffective teacher, disruptive children sitting next to good children would not work as well.

Hopefully the teacher sees the class as a whole, and makes decisions accordingly for the good of the class. There are always going to be differences in personality, ability, talents and background between 20 or more children.

HMB - the very fact that you are concerned about doing the right thing for the pupils and their parents clearly demonstrates that Robin's comments were wholly inappropriate, offensive and inflammatory. In her defense, Robinw has given me some great help on an allergy thread recently but this is unbelievable!

In all walks of life, there are people who are fantastic at their jobs and those who are the pits. Although I have never met HMB, she comes across as a caring and committed teacher who clearly is concerned about the education of children.

Most of us would never make such personal attacks on others and I find it very disconcerting that someone can not come on Mumsnet for advice without being insulted.

I would like to challenge anyone to complete a PGCE and work in a difficult school and do a good job whilst having children. I don't kid myself - I could not do the job that many other Mumsnetters do. I am not saying that teaching is harder than any other profession. But then I don't insult doctors, journalists, SAHMs, etc for their career choice and the advice they seek on MN.

Off soapbox - back to coughing up green gunk

hmb - only just read this thread.

Just wanted to say you sound like a GREAT teacher, and the vast majority of Mumsnetters have recognised this and chipped in with some brilliant suggestions.

Glad to hear that your strategies seem to be paying off.

I'm probably going to get a real bashing for this, but sometimes, the good guy/bad guy seating really does work and benefits both children.

When I was 11, I went into a class where the teacher did the boy/girl seating thing. I got picked on to sit next to the most obnoxious boy in the class. I went home crying a lot the first week, I really couldn't bear him and he knew exactly how to wind me up. Anyway, over the course of that year, both he and I changed. We came to an understanding and got on really well. He knuckled down to some work and I became much more tolerant of children who I'd normally avoid because I thought they were "troublemakers". I saw another side to them through him and it was one of the best "life lessons" I ever had. It shaped me into the person I am today.

I remember us chatting about when he got in trouble and I think it helped him think about different ways to manage his own behaviour. We would have a laugh together. I would explain work he didn't understand. He would explain why he didn't understand it(peer tutoring is good for both children - the more able child develops their skills through explaining concepts and the less able child has someone at "their own level" helping them understand).

I've never forgotten that boy, we became good friends in that year, although went to different schools at the end of it.

I looked him up on Friends Reunited recently, just to see how he had got on in life. He's married with 2 children and a job in IT Development.

Sitting next to him that year didn't hold my education back, it enriched it.

I am not saying it should be done all the time in every class and totally understand that for some children it doesn't work. But in my example it did.

HMB just to repeat what I've already written - your students are very lucky to have such a thoughtful and caring teacher. Education is such a multi-faceted thing that it can be difficult for one not delivering themselves to fully understand it. Similarly for parenting. That's why your enquiry here is so excellent, but equally why it is not right for people to claim to be an expert on the aspect they have no experience on - namely delivering education.

2gorgeousboys. Me too - I was sat next to the most obnoixous boy in Y8 French, being the swottiest girl. Still remember his name - and found the whole experience rewarding. In primary school I was paired with a very weak student for a project. Both of these experiences were very important and influential in me deciding to become a teacher - a career I adore.

My dd1 is one of the 'good' girls and has spent most of this year (and some of last) sitting next to one of the more disruptive boys. If anything, I have found that it has focussed her attention even more and has certainly not held her back in her schooling. She was sat with another girls she likes as well (yr 3 so sit in tables rather than at desks facing the front) and between them they rather liked the importance (it was explained that they were to sit with 'x' to provide an example). It does neeed careful thinking about, as it wouldn't be right for all 'good' children, I suspect the level of confidence of the child has to play a part. But as HMB says, she spent a long time considering the pairings and it has obviously paid off. Keep up the good work!

PS dd2 is one of the more disruptive children (talks a lot, easily distracted etc). She is bright, but only works if she wants to. Now, I know it is up to the teacher to make all lessons interesting, but in all walks of life, people are going to be interested in different things & this goes for kids too. I had a long chat with her teacher, gave her a few more insights into dd2s more 'interesting' character traits but followed up with a plea to come down very hard if dd2 was playing up, and this would be followed up at home. Now she nows she wont get away with messing around she is much better behaved.

It seems as if the way this kind of thing is handled and presented to the children concerned can make a big difference to how well it works. hmb, I like your style! (Have their other teachers done a similar thing?)

hmb, I hope that my children end up with teachers like you. You sound like an interested, diligent, kind and capable teacher who is truly concerned about her students' welfare. I'm sorry the robinw has chosen to be so rude to you. It sounds to me like you have already spent far more time on these two boys than their families deserve. I feel so sorry for teachers today who have to deal with the consequences of bad parenting and poor discipline in the home (not that this is nec. the case with your 2 students). When I gave the example of my ss, it was only to suggest that you might find help in less obvious places. In the case of my ss, his mother was so rude and abusive to his teachers and headmistress (suggesting that it was all their fault that he was violent and disruptive) that they just gave up in the end and permanently excluded my ss as it was clear that nothing they could do would help. However, during that first term before he was exluded he and his mother wasted an enormous amount of the teachers' time that could have been used on other students. I am sad that that had to happen. Personally I think that teachers are grossly underpaid! (aside here, as along as I am rambling....my grandfather had a teaching and a law degree and went into teaching because the salaries were better...guess things have changed a bit since then).

Hmb - sounds like you've had great success in the classroom. Well done. Hope it continues after half term too.

I spent a day on Wednesday on the reception desk in a (middle of the road) secondary school, and was quite shocked by the attitudes of some of the children, even the youngest (yr7s). I honestly cannot conceive of being at the front of a class of 30 or more of them, let alone with a couple of difficult ones too. I take my hat off to you!

Can we arrange a 'mumsnet lifeswap' ... you could go and look after Robinw's brownie pack and after-school computer club for a week, and she could teach your classes of teenagers for a week, and see how everybody gets on?!

Hm - not sure about that, roisin, but I think we'd all be much better off if robin stuck to the things she can offer a bit of useful information on (ie allergies, fishoils and xylitol) and refrained from giving us the benefit of her very limited experience on threads like this.

(dino, my jaw dropped too! Had to read it twice ...it still said the same thing though )

As much as we appreciate that some debates are going to become heated, we think some of the comments on this thread are leading down the wrong path and getting too personal. It may be worth reminding yourselves of the mumsnet philosophy (see talk home page). and, as the old saying goes, remember, we're here to make each others lives easier and not more stressful...

Rachel, Justine and Carrie

Three cheers for HMB being a fab and caring teacher!!!

hmb sounds like you did the right thing I think you now need to think of way to go if they continue to disrupt classes ( would it be HOY through who communicates a common strategy to all their teachers Hope it all goes well

I have just got in from a day at work and have seen all the posts.

Can I just thank people for all their very kind comments (which are quite undeserved). I was very glad to read them as I was quite upset by Robinw's highly personal and unpleasent attack on me.

I realise that we all need to keep to the mumsnet ethos, that we are here to give and recieve help.

It posted my original request for help very much in line with Mumsnet's ideals. I wanted help and feed back from Mothers about what they would want to happen to their child if they were in this situation. Hoever I was very much aware that Robinw has little, if any, regard for Teachers and has made this abundantly clear in earlier posts that she made on a different thread. Which is why I asked for positive comments.

I realise that mumsnetters do differ in their opinions, and have every right to do so, but I was keen to get helpful advice and for this not to decend into another thread that ended up saying that kids misbehave because teachers are crap (which happend last time). So I posted as I did, rather as a GF mum posts asking for help and advice and not for another argument about GF.

But Robinw cannot resist the chance to put forward her thesis that teachers are crap, and that I am childish and a crap teacher. I'm sorry if the Mumsnet team think that I stepped over the edge in my reply to her, but I was livid at this attack (again) from a woman who has never met me and has never seen me teach.

I cannot comment on how she behaves on the allergy board, but her vindictiveness in Education, and IIRC in breastfeeding (Breastfeeding nazi's was, I thin,k the term she used), is most unpleasent.

Sorry about the long post, but I do feel that I have to get this off my chest.

Sofiaames, sorry to hear about your ss. Have things resolved at all?

Re the Class. Last lesson went much better, and have just marked a test which showed that they had all learned something (always a relief ) but that they are underperforming and we do need to get on top of this behaviour asap. Other members of staff have said the same.

I saw this thread when it started and i thought I'd go away and think about it, sorry it blew up somewhere along the way. My all very different children have been to several all very different schools and certainly had a big variety of teachers the youngest is now doing gcse (ha! child that is not teacher), i also trained as a teacher at the start of the 80s but only taught for a year. i still haven't thought of a good answer to hmb question, but respect for trying to do your best. Sorry to ramble irrelevantly.

I guess maybe Robinw's own experiences have made it very hard for her to be impartial on this one? Also, I don't know why, but I've always felt that Robinw probably has lots of stuff going on in her own life and maybe her own issues sometimes make it hard for her to realise quite how some of her comments come across to others? It really is so easy to get carried away and unecessarily hostile almost without really thinking about it on an internet board. I've made a good few mistakes myself in the past and have really appreciated mumsnetters capacity to forgive and forget, let bygones be bygones.

When I worked in schools a good few years ago I went on a fab training course which basically reminded us separate bad behaviour from the child itself and to deplore the bad behaviour, not the child. It sounds like hmb's work in the past few days has been on that principle and a wonderful success. Well done to that woman! I wonder if we could extend the same idea to mumsnet posters so that we could note that some posts are out of order without concluding that the poster is an irretrievably nasty person? I have been very grateful when this kind of benefit of the doubt has been extended to me in the past, I must say.

I agree, but it is hard to do that when you have been personally attacked. And I did ask for positive comments at the start.

It is just like the GF threads. Someone will post and ask for help from GF following mothers, and the whole thing will blow up as people wade in and say that GF is rubbish, or whatever. Thankfully this has just about does out on GF and people just agree to differ (for the most part)

It isn't that I want us all to be the same (dull world). I'm happy to admit that robinw's experiences with teachers hasn't been good, but it wasn't me! If she can't avoid getting down to offensive comments, I'd rather she didn't post on a thread which specificaly asked at the start not to degenerate into 'all teachers are crap'

I suppose to be fair to her it didn't get to that point. She just told me that I was childish and that was why I was having problems. ie I am a crap teacher.

I'd be a better person if I could kiss it off, but I'm sorry I'm not into kissing the rod that chasens me

And I was bloody upset at what she said about me, and it was well out of order.