Is there a huge difference between a good school and an outstanding one?

[Wishfulmakeupping]

I'm moving house.
The area we are currently in has an outstanding primary school an a good secondary- but the secondary has terrible reputation and is in a not very not part of the area.
We are moving to a village with a 'good' primary (with a good reputation) and an outstanding secondary both in a 'naice' village.
I'm wobbling because people are surprised that I would move away from the outstanding primary that dd would be due to start. Their reactions are starting to make me doubt myself.
In other aspects the move makes sense nice village, better amenities but we wouldn't be moving 'up' the house would the same as we're in size wise.
Would you stay put for an outstanding primary?

OP, my primary school is currently rated outstanding. 2 years previously to that, it was rated as requires improvement. Prior to that, it was good.

I have not seen any a huge amount of difference in the school over this timeframe, despite the very different Ofsted ratings.

Which makes me think that at primary level, Ofsted ratings are pretty meaningless, and that no, there's probably not a lot of difference between a good and an outstanding primary school, other than paperwork, as PPs have said.

Yes there can be lots of differences between an outstanding school and a good school - but not necessarily what you think!

The biggest difference between schools of any rating IMO is often the ethos, and if you take ethos into account, then which one suits your family and your DC can depend more on subjective values that can't be measured by OFSTED, than on a simple rating.

We chose our local Good school over the Outstanding.

I thought we would choose the Outstanding school until I visited them. I was surprised how far apart they were in approach!

Although both "ordinary" state primaries, one of the schools felt very Christian (saying Grace at lunch, praying in assembly). It had a lot of desk-based "academic" activities in reception, and an emphasis on reading and writing throughout the school, with not a lot if evidence of more creative subjects. The headteacher seemed unassuming and some of the staff quite stern.

The other school seemed broadly atheist in approach, much more emphasis on play in reception. A broader focus in terms of subjects. Teachers seemed less strict. More emphasis on rewarding positive behaviour. More space for creativity on the curriculum.

Which one was the "good" and which "outstanding" seemed irrelevant once I'd visited as one of those schools is totally in keeping with our values as a family and one is not at all. But on the flip-side I know patents who have chosen the other school as they prefer that approach.

What I'm basically trying to say is visit the school, speak to the staff, ask questions about what's important to you and make your own mind up!

And also I'd move in a heartbeat for a decent secondary. So important IMO!

The trouble is you don't really know what a school is like until your child is in the school & that can change during their education - change of Head/teachers etc etc - we did move to be in catchment for an 'outstanding' secondary school - and to be honest I am now very disappointed. It would be quite disruptive for my DS's education to move yet again so we are sticking it out. But as others have said, different schools, whatever their 'ranking' suit different children and families.

tangerinesarenottheonlyfruit Tue 01-Mar-16 13:56:13 And also I'd move in a heartbeat for a decent secondary. So important IMO!

But would you be confident that the school will still be decent in 6 years time? The OP stated that their DC was due to start primary school.

Would you also be confident that the admissions criteria/catchment would not change in those 6 years?

I have to agree about not taking notice of previous school reputations.

My dd went to an infant school which was classed as "Outstanding," yet the Juniors (separate head but feeder school) had a bad reputation. Everyone I spoke to kept saying the infants was wonderful but said the juniors was awful. You know the type of "lots of bullying" "rubbish" and "not as good as infants" type comments.

My experience however is the juniors is a good school, my dd is doing very well, I haven't had any problems with bullying and whilst the OFSTED is a lower score to the infants, the juniors is a better school imo.

I think part of it is because the infants are quite fluffy and molly cuddle (like you would expect for little ones) then when they get up to juniors they are treated more independently and tougher I suppose. That's a good thing though because they are preparing them for Secondary school but I don't think all parents get that.

Also my ds is in the Infants at the moment but the old head who was there for 20 odd years left and I have noticed the difference already.

The Ofsted for the "Outstanding" infants was in 2007 yet they have lived off that reputation for all those years and people are still desperate to get their children in due it's outstanding ofsted. How do we know Ofted won't go in tomorrow and find it requires improvement as 2007 was so long ago.

Ofsted is mostly bollocks. The ratings only mean anything if you fully understand and agree with the criteria on which they base their judgements. Those criteria change all the time and schools are judged in a pointlessly snapshot way. I have worked in a variety of schools. The one I hated most was one of the so-called 'outstanding' ones. All it was 'outstanding' at was box-ticking and Ofsted-arse-licking.

All it was 'outstanding' at was box-ticking and Ofsted-arse-licking.

^^ The Head of our local (outstanding) secondary is also an Ofsted inspector himself - is that allowed?

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that heads actually inappropriately curry favour with Ofsted inspectors. I just meant Ofsted arse-licking in the sense of falling over themselves to do stuff to satisfy an Ofsted inspection (rather than doing things for the good of the pupils and staff).

What Merciful said.

If you and the DC like the school, it doesn't matter what Ofsted say. I'm not even sure what grade my kids school has.

I've worked in education, been inspected by Ofsted personally as a childminder and my DH is a teacher. Ofsted grading is not something I'd even take into account when looking at schools.

Our village has an outstanding primary but we didn't get into it and ended up in a good primary in the local town and after being here for over 2yrs I'm actually glad. The outstanding school has some issues that have only come to light after living here for a bit and after reading the detail of why the 'good' school is only good actually I feel it's a better school just has a more difficult intake which I feel they deal with fantastically.
I would read the actually reports and visit the schools rather than just going with the headline rating.

My DS is at an outstanding secondary. It's fine, certainly not great. He went to a good primary again it was OK, not great. We are in a very middle class area and lots of tutoring goes on. If you look at the difference between the achievement of the deprived pupils and the not deprived its large. Pointing to tutoring. Another school in town has virtually no difference. All pupils do equally well. It is probily a much better school but not so sought after.
Use ofsted as a guide but don't base your full decision on it.

It's actually quite hard to find out what a school is really like. Open Days only show you what the school wants to show you, as do websites. Ofsted reports only show you what they think is important (i.e. data). Even asking parents of kids who go to the school probably isn't that helpful- you usually get completely different responses. Going for a tour of the school on a normal school day is probably the best way. Even good schools have some pretty awfully-behaved kids. The behaviour in lessons in lots of normal schools these days would probably shock parents who went to decent schools in the 70's or 80's. My dd got a place today at our local comprehensive, where I have done some supply teaching. It's a good school, highly regarded in the local area, and I'm pretty happy for her to go there, but I had a few classes there that I could barely handle.

The dates of the Ofsteds REALLY matter.

Once rated 'Outstanding', schools are pretty much never reinspected unless a significant concern is flagged up.

Whereas a 'Good' school is regularly reinspected and a RI one is frequently reinspected.

So an Outstanding from 2015 - yes, that is probably worth the paper it is written on. No advance warning, pretty much the current inspection framework. An Outstanding from 2007 - ignore it. The school could be entirely different, the school would have had significant warning of the inspection and the inspection was MUCH less tough [the new 'Good' framework is actually tougher than the old 'Outstanding' one]. You could have a totally different staff now, and IME many of those 'old outstanding' schools are coasting.

'Good', though, does cover quite a wide range. My DS was made a selective mute by his first 'Good' school, and absolutely flourished in his second.

My Daughter is at an outstanding primary - if there had been space in any other school in the borough I would have moved her. The school is only interested in box ticking and league tables.

(I would also add that, as one of the things that might flag an 'old outstanding' school up for reinspection is a drop in results, they do have a tendency to be very protective of their data ... in primary, this may take the form of extensive SATs-focused coaching in Y6, or a less-than-open-arms approach to children with SEN)

And, as a general rule, I would always say that a school aspiring to the next grade up will be a better place to be (for children - harder for staff) than a school that is 'comfortable' in its current rating.

The best school for children I have ever encountered is a school pushing to move from RI / Satisfactory to Good. As the progress of every child really mattered in achieving that, the focus on meeting every child's needs was amazing. Another school, pushing for 'Outsanding' from 'Good', was also brilliant.

The school I knew I would never send my children to within 5 minutes of starting a visit was an old outstanding one.

The 'outstanding' one I worked at was rated outstanding in summer 2013, just before I started working there in September. It was not outstanding. It was awful to work in. They interviewed me for an MFL job, asked me at interview if I'd be willing to teach some English too (which I'm not qualified to do). I agreed and when I arrived I found there was no Head of English and I was one of 3 unqualified English teachers in the department. Staff were unsupported by the leadership team. And I have never seen such excessive paperwork and data analysis in any other school. Clearly Ofsted loved their impeccable box-ticking but weren't so interested in the actual teaching and learning... My job was only a maternity cover but I quit before it finished.

I just spoke to a friend whose school was rated outstanding last year. Their best teachers have been head hunted by other schools and offered more money, their head of EYFS went to a private school, their head teacher has been seconded to a struggling school part time, and the school 'started going downhill the day after the Outstanding rating came out' (her words)....

In my dd's primary life, the school gas gone from Good, satisfactory, Good (with Outstanding features). The schools been great. Couldn't be happier.

She just got a place at secondary. For years it was Good, then Outstanding, now back to Good again. I visited 2 years ago and again recently. I can't see how the school's changed much.

I wouldn't set your schools on just an OFSTED rating. Ignore other people. I know it's hard. But ignore. Focus on you.

My DC are at an outstanding secondary school and we are really, really happy with it. The rating is a few years old now but the recent DofE tables demonstrated it is top in our area for added value for both GCSEs and A levels. High achievers at GCSE scored on average A-, so I think it's outstanding status is well deserved.

Depends. Some outstanding schools are just very very carefully polished turds. And some are really good day in, day out.

I think to have a better idea, you really need to visit them. Get the opinions of parents with dc currently at the schools.

FWIW my DS was at an outstanding infant school - it WAS outstanding. He is now at an outstanding junior school - it IS outstanding.

A good indicator is how well they nurture their pupils with SEN. Genuinely great schools care for their pupils who need extra attention - lesser ones try to ignore the ones who'll struggle in the hope they'll go away.

Quite often parents do not see the difference between RI and Outstanding because they do not see the progress of ALL the children - Ofsted do. The parents are not seeing how the teachers teach - Ofsted do. They make judgments on how well teachers are teaching over time. Are the children making the prgress they should? Only Ofsted know if the school is recognising where it should it improve because it scrutinises progress data and the school's plans and attainment outcomes in detail. Parents do not have access to this and usually do not see the school's development plan. How do parents know if the school's self evaluation and improvement plan are accurate, let alone know if the improvements have been carried out effectively? Do parents know if the SLT and Governors are outstanding and doing everything they should? Possibly not. So parents are in a very poor position to judge the effectiveness of a school. They can only judge their own child within the school.

I do not think Ofsted is about box-ticking. It is about a school providing evidence that every child is making progress. This is done by regular asessment of childrens' work. These results are scrutinised to see if progress is being made. Is that not what we all want for our children?

Also, you cannot judge a school solely on SATS results. This is because a child who (in old money) did not make level 4 could have a good reason for that (SEND or PP?) and may, actually, have made very good progress.

I think when choosing a school, the ethos is something you should pay attention to. Do you like the Head? Do they fill you with confidence? Are they appointing good teachers? Do they want every child to succeed? Are they enthusiastic and bouyant about their school? What progress do the children make? Look at the Ofsted Data Dashboard. Would your child fit into the school? Never move just for a reputation. Make sure the facts are correct and your child will flourish there. Teachers change and so does the quality of a school.