Tim nice but dim... How does he manage to get a good job.

[ReallyTired]

Supposely there is a glass floor that stops the children of well off families from failing.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3174961/The-Triumph-Tim-Nice-Dim-Report-says-posh-stupid-children-end-earning-poor-gifted.html

What causes this? Or does it just mean you cannot assess academic ablity at 5. Tim nice but dim can't be that dim if he has managed to pass his exams. Even if his parents have connections he still has to hold down that well paid job.

Is the glass ceiling for the poor but able child caused by lack of aspiration of state schools or is the failure to develop good communication/ social skills. Should our more able free school meal kids be given LAMDA lessons? Does Nice but Dim Tim Have less fear of failure.

stumblymonkey All that does sound great but can be impossible for parents who aren't confident themselves, I really do see that as the stumbling block. I don't mix with and CEOs for my kids to meet and realise that they are just people for a start.

The shy thing is definitely an issue, DH and I are both shy people but obviously we've got over that to a point. I can pretty much chat to anyone but would avoid social situations that I find uncomfortable. We were probably both least shy in our twenties and thirties but have gotten less social and more insular again as we've got older. i.e. 5-10 years ago we would have invited people over to stay or for dinner, now we don't.

Hmm as athiests attending church wouldn't be our thing. :o

In my children's comp they are working on these soft skills, young enterprise etc. so I'm not sure that comparing comps when we went to school necessarily equates what is going on now. Some top companies are relaxing their entrance criteria which will give Tim some more competition.

However the cuts that are going on now are going to restrict most people's life chances except for the top 7% and rich international migrants. What is needed is teachers who believe in every child's life chances as in the teacher from London who wrote that blog and was sacked. However it is easier to believe in life chances for children if they are living in stable accommodation (i.e. not in b&b, short term private rented housing, or moved 100s of miles from London to Birmingham), parents are able to escape from domestic violence (i.e. stop cuts to refuges), social workers are not too overburdened, early years centres are available to provide support (i.e. stop cutting children's centres), families can afford to send their children to out of school football, ballet, guides/cubs (i.e. stop universal credit taking away £1000 from single parent families).

agree with you eyebrows but just in case people are reading this, parents who can't afford it should never feel that their children are not completely welcome at Scouts (Beavers/Cubs too). I am sure other similar organisations are the same in that they will always make space available on a non pay basis for children who otherwise wouldn't be able to go. They are very open about doing that and very discrete about the actual process. Just contact the local co-ordinator or scout leader and they will deal with it, same goes for fees for camps and other activities. I've luckily never had to avail myself of it, but they do keep funds aside to ensure that lack of money does not stop children having the opportunity to attend.

clearly other things such as ballet and music lessons etc are a different kettle of fish. Our local football and rugby training also have funds set aside to cover disadvantaged children and have spare kit etc available.

This is a regular conversation in our house. We are both state school, and then russell group university educated, both qualified lawyers, but feel that we have never quite "made it" compared to our peers. All of our contemporaries are earning at least double our salaries.

We are both fairly good at talking to people, and can handle social events etc, but I think we lack that outward confidence that our friends have.

I think it is partly because we having never had a safety net financially (both lower middle class, educated families, but no money and relying in each month's salary etc). We have therefore always had to work, no gap years, worry whether we have a job the next day. It turns you into a people pleaser, you don't take risks and ask for a pay rise, or switch jobs.

I know lots of people from state, and private schools. From all walks of life. Ultimately you need the confidence to not actually care that much about a job.

Yeah, its the soft skills that make the difference IMO. The confidence thing is huge - being able to talk to people who are older/more senior, not being intimidated by grand offices or posh restaurants, knowing which cutlery and wine glass to use, being able to make acceptable small talk, wearing appropriate clothing, talking eloquently and clearly and not using lots of redundant 'filler' words, familiarity with foreign languages and foods - all stuff that wouldn't be impossible to mug up on, but would be hard if you're not brought up with it, which solidly MC kids are, particularly ones that go to private schools.

There is also a glass floor that stops "successful" people from falling too far. What happens if a receptionist or secretary is terrible at their job? They will either be dismissed or (perhaps more likely) their lives made increasingly difficult until they walk away. What happens when a senior manager underperforms? They are often moved sideways, promoted out of the way, or given a big severance package plus terms that will allow them to move seamlessly into a comparable post. Once you're on the right trajectory (we know that this begins with parents, schooling, and contacts), then everything gets much easier, even failure.

Actually, discussing this with my mum and she thinks it has a lot to do with channeled agression. We were always raised to "do the right thing", " be kind " etc.

She went through a list of names of my friends and contemporaries who have done extremely well and she is right - they all have a drive and aggression that said "don't mess with me". They come across as confident, but it really means, " I know I'm good, so I dare you to disagree ". Even the less bright ones.

Well I said it before upthread, but I really want to offer reassurance to those on here who said their children will never make it because they are not confident/connected etc...

This is utterly untrue and you shouldn't think like this. The CEO of my company is an ex-council estate child. He isn't nice but dim at all. He is clever and charismatic individual.

One of our presidents is not English and comes from a slum.

Another one is also not English and comes from a very simple background, as do many other very senior leaders. I haven't done too bad myself (6 figure salary) and I am also foreign and come from a simple background; my parents brought us up in a one bedroom flat, I never had any new clothes and was hungry a lot. I wouldn't say I had ANY privilege at all.

It really is a very diverse environment in many corporates. It is probably different it magic circle law type firms, but you don't have to work in one of those if you feel discriminated - there are plenty of large corporate companies with a forward looking attitude, which favours clever individuals over background.

I hope my comment genuinely helps parents who feel their children are disadvantaged, as the world is really changing and I find it a lot more meritocratic.

One last thing - it is true that being aggressive help - but it is definitely a skill you can learn. I was really quiet and insecure and I have learned to stand my ground and be assertive and even aggressive - surprisingly quickly.

Some of it is about confidence and image, but I think people underestimate how much nepotism still goes on in UK society. I only had one close friend at university who was privately educated. Not a "nice but dim" per se, but certainly not the brightest or most motivated person I knew by a long stretch.

He now runs a medium-sized business. How did he get the job? His dad owns the company.

This is how the upper middle classes preserve their status. Their bright kids have the confidence instilled in them to spread their wings and succeed. The "nice but dim" kids are found a comfortable job somewhere by their parents.

I work in finance. Yes, it's true... there's generally a preference for articulate, polished and confident people who basically 'look the part'. It doesn't matter whether they come from private schools or state schools... but it seems private schools churn them out more easily than state schools.

Saying that though, at my current work place the two guys I sit closest to are products of major public schools. They are nice, funny and down-to-earth guys just making a living and couldn't give a toss where people are from or what accent they have.

There's a guy on our floor who obviously went through a different route, and has a very strong accent that in movies would always belong to someone from a lower class, if you know what I mean. The two public school-educated guys never hold this against him - they just treat everyone the same.

However, there are a few guys (and with 'guys' , I literally mean 'men'... there's really a lack of women) who've gone to a local comp, have less wealthy backgrounds, etc. ...and they all have this chip on their shoulder that they were not given the same opportunities as the public school boys. But when confronted with the guy with the strong accent, I'll repeat what many of them think and one of them actually said out loud: "Why on Earth did he not learn to speak properly? He might know a lot, but when he talks, he just sounds stupid and uneducated!"

My point is - it's not just a case of 'old boys' network' anymore. Even people without the 'posh' background will sometimes prefer those who had one to those who haven't had all the privilege because of how they appear.

This is interesting. I am well educated, professional, middle class etc but have had a client say that I wasn't right for them because I seemed "nervous" sometimes / lacked "polish" (client was very posh). They perceived differences between my accent/manners and theirs that others didn't (and in fact I was quite badly bullied at school for being "posh").

I teach my children old fashioned manners- etiquette, if you like. I tell them that they don't ever have to use them, and in a properly regulated world they wouldn't have to but in the world as it is, people sometimes judge you on stuff that shouldn't matter, so if you know the stuff, it's something you can haul out of your tool bag if required.

assertiveness.
charisma.
self belief.
That's what I reckon are important to progress. These things of course are not necessary paid for of course. Parents can help by making their children talk and hold a conversation with family members, neighbours, friends parents etc. And of course instilling in their dc that the world is their oyster - but they have to get out there are see it, it won't come to them!
I teach many dc from many different backgrounds, and many (rich and poor) expect the good things in life to automatically come to them, without having to work hard to get them. Good things have to a) know you're there, and b) be deserved.
I feel really passionate about this type of social/career mobility so I'll stop here before I really get going!!!

I think it is quite difficult to replicate what the best independent schools do at home. there are formal dinners, showing prospective parents around the school, lots of drama and never thinking you cannot do something. I think there has to be an inner confidence too, but children who don't necessarily have the advantage of a private school, can acquire the skills if they wish. Parents and children need a plan.

At my DDs university it was clear the boarding school types had the worst accommodation! They were used to sharing bathrooms so just continued. They choose halls with formal dinners, just like school. They network, network and network! It really has nothing to do with going to church. It is more about knowing what to do and joining in with the independently educated ones. Some young people do and others run a mile. There even seems to be a "them and us" at some halls of residence. It is rather tribal! Nice but not so clever child will be at a good university but studying the easiest to get into subject. Hello to Bristol, Exeter, Durham, Edinburgh etc after years of tutoring. After graduating with the less desirable degree, there is the £5000 fee to Quest to find a job. Selling advertising space at Tatler maybe. Parents have bought the flat in London, so no need to worry about that! Finding a rich husband/wife is the real pinnacle of success, never mind how dim you are!

Girls go off and have a few children and do a bit of interior designing. Boys just spend the trust fund or run the shooting estate. There is always someone to give them a job. This is not the world most people inhabit, but it exists. Young people should speak well, be well presented, be sociable with anyone, have confidence and never have a chip on their shoulder.

Bojorojo has it spot on!
I went to a very old, traditional university and this is exactly what the posh kids did. Carried on as if they were still at school. Formal dinners, chapel on Sundays, networking, being nice to anyone they thought would be useful irrespective of whether they liked them, treating the place as if they owned it (some of their parents had actually chucked a few thousand the college's way at interview time) treating the university lecturers as equals despite being only 19 and knowing nothing (that attitude can get you a long way, for some reason) and never, never doubting themselves and their place in the world. Working-class / lower-middle class kids would often doubt themselves and wonder whether they were good enough to have got in, whether it had been a fluke. The ones who'd got in from high-end public schools simply never had those thoughts.

Confidence, connections and class.
Generally that's the magic formula for the 'how the fuck did you get that job' types I know and meet. My FB page tells me the clever working class girl with the first didn't have a stellar career. The public school boys all found each other within minutes, formed obscure named groups, and are all now actively in touch, owners of large houses in London, and earning buckets. Ceilings are very well plastered for some of us not blessed with silver teaspoons.

I have a v posh male friend whose parents paid the rent on his flat in central London, paid the fees for his post grad law course. Then bought him a house in Chalk Farm and paid for him to study to be a psychotherapist! He's now planning to specialise in seeing clients

• pressed too soon!

Seeing clients who are stressed out City professionals. This man has hardly done a day's work in his life!

Money.

The really Tim-nice-but-dim types end up in jobs in fields where you can buy your way in through work experience or knowing connections (getting a little job with daddy's friend's company and so on). Rather than the City (reserved for not quite so dim types, even if they're not the first water of intelligence), the genuinely posh and dim get jobs in: property (posh estate agencies), recruitment, estate management, posh farming (organic hand-reared pigs etc.), posh shops (sloaney wallpaper, high-end rugs), posh hotels, posh travel guides, auction houses, galleries, and all sorts of other little companies and roles you'd never guess were hidden around the place, but provide endless and reasonably moneyed employment for the genuinely thick children of the rich or upper/upper upper middle class.

I used to work in Piccadilly for a lawyer who had reason to visit a lot of these useless posh businesses in the course of his work. This normally meant popping round to some "boutique" long-haul luxury travel company or minor auction house in Mayfair for a bit of a chat with the owner before being taken out to a nearby hotel for lunch (as the accompanying minion, I would do some minor work on some accounts for an hour or so and then would be included in the lunch, presumably as some kind of decorative object, given that I was 22 and at that time quite pretty). The number of genuinely thick nice but dim types who had been found jobs hanging around in such places was quite amusing (at least at first) - they are there to hold doors open, answer the phone, do some filing and tidying up, smile a lot and learn a suitable trade. They are often not paid very much to start with, but parents, a parental London flat and/or a small trust fund will mean they can eventually work their way up to a more senior post that often is very well-paid, despite not really having many qualifications or natural wit. The junior posts are rarely advertised, especially as they are often not properly salaried; they are given to children of friends so most hungry state-school educated kids would never know they existed.

Brilliant thread, I have young dcs, we are working class with middle class relatives with dc of similar ages. I often ponder how we can bridge the gap. My observations have been the middle class all have amazing polish, know the right things to say always, are nearly always positive about anything & will give anything a go, are well travelled & consider the world their oyster & are utterly fearless.
They have been exposed to a wide variety of experiences from birth eg cultural holidays at friends villas in France or Italy, skiing in winter, possibly a safari, ballet, rugby, violin, piano, visiting friends/ relatives country pile... All these experiences create confidence & "worldliness" & that is something that is very hard to emulate... But we shall try!
Of the public school types I know it's their unshakable confidence & their ability to seek out "their own" which sticks with me... Oh & they are very thrifty with their money too!!!!

I think this is a really interesting topic and I think networking has a lot to do with it. My DB moved his family back from NYC so his son could go to his old school for the network it will give him. We are from a totally Tim background but not necessarily dim with it.

I moved abroad in my early 20s but have ended up with an excellent network too. I think my background has taught me to be able to talk to anyone and always find the common ground. That and to not stir the pot when I disagree.

A very self limiting aspect is having a chip on your shoulder IME.

I live in rural France and nepotism is alive and kicking here. Networks are vital. Who you know will open doors.

Interesting thread. Don't underestimate how long the money lasts though. I'm from a wealthy privately educated background and am surrounded by similar types. The saying "first generation earns it, second consolidates it and third spends it" is often true. I know a few people who aren't intelligent but lovely people. Yes, their lives are tickety boo but they are not always able to give their own children what they had. Grandparents often pay the school fees to cover it up but the money only lasts so long (bar the super rich obviously)