Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

Academies- anyone know much about them?

176 replies

EnglishRose1320 · 04/01/2016 22:40

Just have a load of questions about academies basically, how much do they change schools? I know they vary a fair amount but feel a bit in the dark about them and seeing as by 2020 in at least the county I am in we will no longer have an LEA and only have academies I feel I ought to wise up on them. What experiences have people had of them so far both as staff and as parents, I'm looking at it from both view points. Do people think they are a good idea or Not? Sorry bit rambly but basically any info and thoughts appreciated.

OP posts:
disappoint15 · 10/01/2016 10:39

Also at prh47: Clearly the A-level table can be sorted in different ways. That is what I did and it told a different story from the headline data you quoted. You confidently cited that St Paul's, a school which another poster mentioned, was 30 something in terms of A level results behind loads of state schools which academisation had improved. You didn't mention that by a different (and arguably more useful) measure it is number 3, which the pp had suggested. Your assertion is true by one measure and false by another. Your reply to me didn't acknowledge the substance of my point.

And, yes, where is the evidence from the UK? I note you say 'evidence that academy-style freedoms' drive improvement but you don't explain which ones and why only the academy model can deliver them.

roundaboutthetown · 10/01/2016 11:15

The most useful piece of advice I was given as a teenager was that it was better to get three As (this was pre-A*s) at A-level than four A-levels at lower grades as no university would require any more than three A-levels and the more academic universities would want the highest grades for their subject. I don't know how university admission works now, but that advice certainly paid off for me and left me with lots of spare time to pursue outside interests.

IguanaTail · 10/01/2016 11:35

Prh- the list of things you attribute to LAs ("even if all schools are academies") is not correct. The academy where I used to work had to buy in its own Ed Psych, deal with excluded pupils - liaising with the alternative provision, completing all the forms, paying for the placement etc. I can't think what the LA did there. They didn't "deal" with anything.

minifingerz · 10/01/2016 12:36

The more I think about it the more laughable it is that 'not enough low ability children applied' is being put forward as an argument for a supposedly non-selective state school which takes in children from wards in the bottom 24% of the deprivation index, having 75% of its intake classed as 'high ability'.

A school which has 8 applicants for every single place, making it the most oversubscribed 'non-selective' state school in the UK. But apparently not enough applicants from middle and low ability children to properly apply its 'fair banding' admissions procedures....

Hmm
IguanaTail · 10/01/2016 13:32

I would be very interested to know what you found out.

christinarossetti · 10/01/2016 13:37

I agree minifingerz, it"s like some sort of Cold War-esque propaganda.

People living near am 'outstanding' non-selectove secondary put this as one of their preferences everywhere else in the country, I wonder why we are expected to believe that this is somehow different in CP?

And where on earth would people get the idea that their child's ability would be a factor, rather than the published admissions criteria?

It's incredibly difficult to ascertain whether the admissions criteria have been applied fairly when schools (usually academies and free schools) have all sorts of complicated criteria.

crazycatguy · 10/01/2016 13:39

As a teacher, I would neither work, nor send kids to, one of the chain academies. Most secondaries are academies and changed little (asides their budgets being reduced which is across the board).

I live in North London, where chain academies abound. They provide a narrow education based on what would give them the statistics the government and Daily Mail readers love. Teachers go for the 'high achieving' kids trumpeted through highly spurious and somewhat doctored statistics, and leave for the un-necessary fear and coercion placed upon them by management.

Wouldn't touch them with a ten foot bargepole.

IguanaTail · 10/01/2016 13:41

Me neither. But some parents really don't have the choice. They have taken over a lot of areas.

A friend of mine at one (English) was directed to re-write students' controlled assessments and refused. She left. But it was rife across that very well known academy. I wonder how they will fare skew the figures when controlled assessments have gone.

christinarossetti · 10/01/2016 13:56

That's a bit of a generalisation to make, crazycatand I say that as someone very opposed to the academy programme.

Unfortunately, that describes many LA run schools at the moment too, as a result of the endless central government interference and tinkering.

christinarossetti · 10/01/2016 14:02

A LA run school near me had their SATs results annulled by the DofE for cheating too, iguana. A friend of mine"s DD was forced to leave her ostensibly liberal secondary sixth form after her AS levels because she isn"t likely to get decent A levels. Some Y11s from an "outatanding' community school described the teachers 'helping' them with their controlled assesments.

It" s neither true or helpful to pretend that these things only happen in sponsored academies, I'm afraid.

IguanaTail · 10/01/2016 14:10

I never said it only happened in sponsored academies.

christinarossetti · 10/01/2016 14:31

That's true. Although you didn't say that teachers in non-academy schools are under the same pressures as your friend either.

roundaboutthetown · 10/01/2016 14:50

Something tells me that the evidence from overseas of the success of academy-style schools comes from the same school of statistics as the "evidence" in this country. Or have the citizens of some countries expressed surprise at how much more employable, educated and cultured their young people are, these days?

christinarossetti · 10/01/2016 15:58

Sorry, *roundabout", I don't understand the points that you're trying to make.

IguanaTail · 10/01/2016 16:21

Well I have lots of friends in a lot of different types of schools and none of them, apart from her, has been directed to write a controlled assessment. And none has also said that this is the norm across their school. And of course those not working in a chain are not in a position to swap students and teachers around for inspections (and I know that from 3 people in different schools within that same chain). So I suppose I do believe that there is more corruption within that particular chain. Additionally I know that within that particular chain it is very much frowned on for staff to leave before 6pm - "oh, where are you going?" style questions. That again from that same chain.

That's not to say there is zero corruption anywhere else, and I am sure there are some schools which have a lot of pressure. But from what I have heard from a variety of sources, all that glistens is not gold within that chain and I do think that at least some of the schools within that chain do have unreasonable demands on their staff.

IguanaTail · 10/01/2016 16:22

Sorry, when I said "directed to write a controlled assessment" I should have said "a lot of controlled assessments - all that were under target".

christinarossetti · 10/01/2016 17:34

I agree. And I know of teachers in a wide variety of school settings who have been pressured to cheat in a variety of ways, and/or there is a culture in their schools where you put the answers to SATs tests and the like on the whiteboard before the tests etc etc.

In primary and secondary schools, rated 'outsranding' to 'special measures', LA run, converter academies and sponsored academies.

This has been going on for years, and I expect and get the sense that it's increased hugely in the last few years, with the threat of acadenisation and continually shifting targets of Ofsted.

roundaboutthetown · 10/01/2016 20:57

Merely commenting that the perceived success of schools in this country seems to be based entirely on league tables of exam results, christinarosetti.

christinarossetti · 10/01/2016 21:26

Oh, thanks for explaining, I see what you meant. Sorry, it was a bit too cryptic for me!

Yes, absolutely. Made more so now that there is the stick of forced academisation to beat schools with.

prh47bridge seems to have disappeared from this thread.

EnglishRose1320 · 10/01/2016 23:06

Prh- a lot of things have already been outsourced, training we would have previously got through the Lea we now have to go to private companies for, an kind of assessment for a child, ed psych etc again comes from a. Private company.

OP posts:
Flumplet · 10/01/2016 23:16

My ds school is an (primary) academy and has gone from requiring improvement to good very quickly and the principal is an absolute force to be reckoned with. I am extremely pleased with ds progress in what has been his first term in school. I used to work in the office of a different primary academy and it was very results driven also.

prh47bridge · 11/01/2016 00:20

prh47bridge seems to have disappeared from this thread.

No I haven't! Busy day.

I absolutely don't accept that local parents of low achieving parents stopped applying to Harris CP and this is what accounts for its hugely skewed intake.

I struggle to see how they managed it given the level of independent scrutiny involved. But, as I said, it is possible they managed to do so somehow and that the increase in low achievers being admitted is because they have stopped doing so, although I'm not clear why they would. I am somewhat surprised that you find my comments sinister.

what is the evidence from the uk that academisation drives up standards

There is evidence cited in the select committee report linked to earlier in this thread. This covers figures provided by Ofsted and also external research by academics.

Pot? Kettle?

I presume you are accusing me of having a pro-academy agenda. I don't. I don't have an anti-academy agenda either. I'm interested in what works. If you check my historic posts you will find that I was initially somewhat sceptical about academies. At the moment my view is that the evidence suggests that the academy model works better than the LA-controlled model. If the evidence changes or someone comes up with another approach that works better I will happily change my view. What matters is that our education system gives children the best education possible with the resources available.

For what it is worth, if the DfE was on here posting some of the rubbish that appears on their website about how academies are the solution to all the problems in our schools I would be pointing out the flaws in their arguments too. They massively overstate the evidence and some of the conclusions they draw simply do not follow.

What bodies, of any scale, who interpret any sort of data "don't" have an agenda? Certainly not the DoF.

I treat research from the DfE with as much caution as I do research from the opponents of academies. There is some research that I believe doesn't have much of an agenda if any. But I agree finding it is difficult.

I don't know off hand how many LAS have outsourced their admissions dept

As far as I am aware none have done so. But even if they do it will not change the function of the LA. They will still be responsible for co-ordinating admissions in their area even if they pay someone else to do the work.

I'm struggling to understand how a body with no staff in a particular dept is realistically to be held legally responsible for something, but I'm sure that you're going to Newspeak me the explanation

No Newspeak involved at all. It is quite straightforward. The law makes the LA responsible for certain matters. Outsourcing the function does not shift the legal responsibility. Any parent wishing to take legal action over a breach of the LA's responsibilities would sue the LA.

The schools adjudicator got involved and they got into trouble for trying to circumnavigate their own admission code

A number of schools and LAs get into trouble for that every year. It is not confined to academies. I wish they would all stop it. Complying with the Admissions Code is not difficult. Some of the appeal cases I get involved with make me despair. I wish someone would offer me the job of Schools Adjudicator so I can make them all comply!

Your reply to me didn't acknowledge the substance of my point

I thought I had. I acknowledged that there are a number of ways the data can be sorted. State schools have closed the gap to independent schools on the specific measure I quoted. Other measures are available. State schools are closing the gap on all measures but have further to go on some than others.

I note you say 'evidence that academy-style freedoms' drive improvement but you don't explain which ones and why only the academy model can deliver them

The evidence is that there is a strong positive correlation between giving schools:

  • autonomy over resource allocation
  • autonomy over curriculum and assessments
  • freedom to compete for pupils

and outcomes for pupils.

In the UK all schools have a high degree of autonomy over resource allocation. Only academies have autonomy over curriculum and assessments. I do not understand why the government doesn't extend this to all schools and, at the same time, limit the ability of LAs to meddle in this area for LA-controlled schools. In theory all schools have the freedom to compete for pupils but in practice LAs tend to limit competition. As the LA is the admission authority for LA-controlled schools it can stop a successful school expanding regardless of how much demand there is for places.

the list of things you attribute to LAs ("even if all schools are academies") is not correct

Yes it is. I can, if you like, refer you to the relevant legislation that gives the LAs these responsibilities. If your LA was not providing these things they were in breach of their legal duties and your school could have taken legal action against them. Academies deliberately do not get any funding for Ed Psych services, SEN assessments, etc. because they are an LA responsibility.

But apparently not enough applicants from middle and low ability children to properly apply its 'fair banding' admissions procedures

That's not quite what I was saying. The approach to fair banding used by HACP gives them a cross section of the pupils who apply. They don't normalise to the profile of the area (which some schools do). If they did and they got a preponderance of high achievers applying the result would be that low achievers would have a higher chance of gaining entry and one would expect the pupils gaining admission to have a similar profile to pupils in the area as a whole. I could write an essay on fair banding but I won't bore everyone. Suffice to say that I think it is better if schools using this system normalise to the profile of the area.

It's incredibly difficult to ascertain whether the admissions criteria have been applied fairly when schools (usually academies and free schools) have all sorts of complicated criteria

HACP's are as straightforward as they can be for a school using fair banding. I've seen far more complex admission criteria than that (yes, I'm looking at you, London Oratory, and your serial breaches of the Admissions Code).

If someone really wanted to check they should put in an FoI request for anonymised test results for a year with the pupils admitted highlighted. It would then be straightforward to check if they were complying with their admission criteria (unless, of course, they were adjusting the results so that some high achieving pupils were awarded much lower marks in the test than they actually earned).

a lot of things have already been outsourced, training we would have previously got through the Lea we now have to go to private companies for, an kind of assessment for a child, ed psych etc again comes from a. Private company

I am not disputing that LAs outsource things. Some, for example, have outsourced rubbish collections. But they are still the council's responsibility and you can complain to the council if there are problems. The same is true with the things you mention. The LA is responsible for ensuring that SEN assessments are provided, for example. It doesn't have to provide them itself. It can outsource to a private company or to another LA. But it has to ensure that they happen.

christinarossetti · 11/01/2016 07:28

You don't appear to be treating all research with scepticism at all though, as you refer to the select committee stuff to support one of your points.

And you seem to have changed your explanation of HACP's admission anomalies to the fact that they don't adjust the bands to reflect the local area, rather than families with lower and middle ability children not applying.

Like minifingerz, I wonder why the intake profile has changed so dramatically since 2002-3. Maybe they did cook the books and got their knuckles rapped like Mossbourne did re the 'rowing aptitude' stuff a couple of years ago? (Please don't tell me there 'isn't any evidence" for this, as *minifingerz" local insights and reflections are pretty compelling for me.)my

My point about LAs was that some departments now don't exist. In the process of investigating maladministration or whatever, how on earth can a sensible investigation be held when there is no-one to respond to e-mails etc.

Op has been told that LEAs won't exist in 3 years. How can a body that doesn't exist have a statutory duty to do anything?

christinarossetti · 11/01/2016 09:26

Sorry, no LEA in her country by 2020, so 4 years.

Englishrose, I agree that the privatisation of previously public services by stealth is really, really scary.

It's been a clear agenda of the Coalition and now the current government, to withdraw funds from local authorities, forcing them to outsource vital services that they are still legally 'responsible for', then presumably to say that LAs are failing en masse, so let's get rid of them.

As a friend of mine who works in Child Protection says, it's like being given a length of calico and told to make a ball gown. However skilled, committed creative or experienced you are, you simply need adequate resources to do a decent, let alone, good job.

christinarossetti · 11/01/2016 09:30

So yes, as prh47bridge explains it, LAs are given a length of calico and, if they don't have to resources to make the ball gown themselves, still have the legal responsibility and to ensure that someone does.

Then when a frock of calico is produced, they're held responsible for why it's not a ball gown.

Swipe left for the next trending thread