Location of grammar schools with no catchment areas

[CrazyMaizie]

Hello,

We are reviewing our options for returning to the UK in a few years. We are not tied to any place and so technically could move anywhere. I would like to ensure good schooling. Is there a list anywhere of grammar schools that do not have catchment areas? I would like to be able to apply from overseas then, if a place is offered, move to that area. Is that even possible? We've been looking at private schools but realise in England a grammar school might fit the bill instead!

Bertrand, no use to the OP as it is a boy's school but St Olaves superselective has no catchment whatsoever and goes purely on score and then tie-break is based on strength on one paper over another etc, but you must be able to put it on a CAF so I suppose you need to be in England.

AuntieStella - And I don't think that's likely from overseas.

I assume you have read through the following:

www3.rbwm.gov.uk/info/200168/schools_and_schooling/781/admissions_for_children_from_overseas

I hadn't, but it seems to me to be talking about the right of a child to education once resident in the UK.

Not the ability to apply before they have arrived, or can show firm intent of arriving (such as arranging an address). Nor do they say they are exempt from the Admissions Code

The document does have two links referring to DofE guidance and Home Office guidance, but that takes you to their main home pages. MumTryingHerBest could you be kind and link the further guidance they mean? (Sites are too big/baffling for someone who isn't familiar with this guidance to even know what to look for. Or even its exact title would help).

I'm interested, and the detail would probably help OP too (unless she opts for state boarding, where a UK address isn't required and distance is never used for tie-breaker).

Just had a thought.
OP seems to be assuming that their return will be around the time of DC applying for Y7 entry. Some areas of the country still have the three tier system so you could arrange to come back to a middle school / private prep and be settled in place in catchment, in time for normal entry for a naice comp at Y9.

Wiki page on three tier system here.

Some of the information that you've been given about Trafford isn't quite correct.

For instance for Altrincham Grammar School for Boys, you have to submit an application form by August (I think) before your son sits the exam and any change of address to within catchment after submission of the application form will not be considered. There are some out of catchment places (provided your DS gets a high score) but they are limited to about 30% of places I think. Again for Altrincham Grammar School for Girls, if you move into catchment (usually about 5 miles from the school) based on your DD passing, your new address is only taken into account in the 2nd round of offers (i.e. you're behind everyone who lived in catchment at the time of application - I don't think there were any 2nd round offers last year).

I think Urmston (and possibly Stretford) offer the top 10 or 20 places to the highest scorers irrespective of distance, but the schools all have distance in their over subscription criteria.

You need to look at the admissions policies very carefully, it is quite a risky strategy. I would reiterate that Trafford (Altrincham specifically) came top in The Times "Best place to live in the UK for Education" because almost all of the schools are outstanding. Cheshire / South Manchester is a great place to live.

AuntieStella - it seems to me to be talking about the right of a child to education once resident in the UK.

I do believe that the OP was intending for their DC to be resident in the UK at the time they would be attending the school. They certainly made no mention of wishing their DC to commute to school from abroad.

As scores for state Grammars are given in early October (often making it clear if a place is likely, admittedly OPs DC would need to score the top marks to be confident of a place from a sizeable distance away), CAF forms submitted in late October and places allocated in March, I think there would be time for the OP to relocate in time for acceptance.

Not the ability to apply before they have arrived really?
It states “children from the European Economic Area have the same rights as British citizens.” Admittedly OP has not said where they are currently located though.

I'm interested

Then I assume you are interested enough to obtain the information yourself?

I'm assuming you knowlege of the admissions process for SS Grammar schools is based on the SS Grammar your DCs currently attend. If so then perhaps you can let the OP know which school so they know it is not an option for them.

Thanks again everyone for your input. I am back to wondering whether we go for last year junior in private then apply from there to a variety of schools.

Having lived near Manchester in the past we do know there's lots to do and yet near to the great outdoors. Re. Current location - EU. We're all British citizens (answering a question above). Not really sure that boarding for us, but had a quick look at Ripon Grammar website and it looks interesting.

So wary of comps having been through the system in the 70s/80s - even attending ones that were raved about then and are still raved about today. My experience wasn't worth raving about.

Anyway, just to say 'thanks everyone' your ideas are really helpful.

"wary of comps having been through the system in the 70s/80s - even attending ones that were raved about then and are still raved about today. My experience wasn't worth raving about."

Things do change over 40 years......

Mum as I've said, once you have taken the entrance exam, there is little likelihood of the "new" (in catchment) address being used for allocation for places, so the timeframe between October and March makes little difference if the OP didn't live near the school pre-exam (unless as others have said - you are talking about the super selectives where distance is not a criteria at all).

OP, I too was very wary of comps but having just been through the entrance exam ordeal hence being a sad geek knowing the admissions criteria inside out and been to see various schools, I think all schooling (not just comps) has changed drastically since us mums went through it.

Not at an SS, so cannot offer that kind of help.

But am familiar with the Admissions Code, and that you need a UK address to apply from (for day schools and day places at state boarding schools), And I thought it might be helpful to OP to be aware of a potential pitfall in how applications are made. Because OP said she was hoping to secure a school place (anywhere) and then only take steps to move to the area once she had an offer I was concerned that she might not be able to apply at all, as all applications go through your home council. With no UK address, which do you use?

I didn't think that the right to an education in the UK meant you were treated differently under the Admissions Code.

If of course she can move between getting the scores and the applications deadline, then this is a non-issue, but possible timings weren't terribly clear to me.

And I did try to find the linked guidance, but as it clicked though to the front page of the whole departmental websites, and I could not find it. I had been hoping that someone might know which guidance document/s they are, because with a name I might stand a better chance. So yes, still interested and stil, hoping for help.

(Also posting again to bump, in hope that prh might spot the thread, as he's usually got all this at his fingertips).

Crazy,

Do you come back to the UK to visit at the moment? It might well be worth visiting a range of schools on one of those visits because so much has changed since you went through secondary education.

Make certain that at least one of the schools you visit is a genuine comprehensive - ie not the 'other' school in a selective area / county.

40 years ago, one of the most 'sharp elbowed parents fight to get into it' comps in the country was a boys' secondary modern. Another comp, now feted in the press, was still 2 separate schools, one a secondary modern. In many parts of the country, 40 years ago, many comprehensives had either not been formed yet or were new, so were still in the throes of transition. Definitely visit, you might be surprised.

I also think that you need to be aware of the level a child needs to be at to make a 'fully non catchment' superselective even a possibility. If you were to go for such a plan, you would need to have a very robust back-up plan should your child not get in - and you would almost certainly need to do some quite heavy-duty preparation (many local pupils will have been heavily and specifically tutored for these tests, but obviously that won't be an option available to you from overseas).

"you are talking about the super selectives where distance is not a criteria at all)"

You'd need to check how they tie break potential pupils with the same score. Because that can be by distance. So you could be 100 miles away if you score 99, but if there are only ten places unfilled by the time you get down to (say) 94 and 40+ children with that score, you might need to live closer than 30+ others.

Or do they go in for lottery on the score that needs tie-breaking?

Yes I know, schools have changed a lot. (I just shouldn't have watched Educating Yorkshire - I know 'edited to make it exciting/controversial' but it completely reminded me of life at my Yorkshire comp all those years ago. Teachers energy wasted on kids who didn't want to learn/few clever clogs who would always do well then a big glut of kids in the middle who needed teachers inspiration but alas teachers couldn't do the inspiring part because of small minority.

Now DD in private school abroad and think that, as (I feel mean saying this) not super bright and super motivated, could end up being failed as I was. Sorry - this turned into a bit of a moan. Just really want to give DD best opportunities to succeed - like us all :)

namechangedtoday15

OP specifically asked about "grammar schools that do not have catchment areas". A SS is a Grammar school with no catchment e.g. QE Barnet. Distance is used only as a tie breaker and as previously mentioned, it is highly unlikely that 150 or so children will get 100% on a SS 11 plus exam. My DS sat a QE Barnet maths moc and only 1 child, out of 265, got 100% (a breakdown of marks and ranks were provided). My DS got 6 questions wrong and ranked 13th. Apparently the actual exam was even harder but then approx. 2,000 children sat it.

It might also be worth noting that Bucks Grammars do have overseas applicants. These schools are not SS.

OP would only need to be a UK resident in order to accept a place not to actually apply as suggested by AuntieStella.

Councils can and do refuse to process applications from those who are not resident in their area.

Some will accept applications if there is strong evidence of imminent move to that area, but others only when the child is physically resident.

If your DD is not super-bright, then the 'catchmentless super-selective' is not a viable option for you, I'm afraid.

I have taught a number of children who have got into local superselective of this type. At the beginning of Year 6 (which is when they take the test) they were already well on the way to what would be a good (above the minimum expected) standard to achieve at the end of year 9.... and all also received high levels of specific coaching for the test.

AuntieStella Thu - Councils can and do refuse to process applications from those who are not resident in their area.

Could that be because the application should be made via the LA for the area in which they reside?

Yes, exactly so. And if someone is overseas, they have no council to apply to.

AuntieStella - Councils can and do refuse to process applications from those who are not resident in their area. OK, perhaps you can let OP know which LA these are as evidently it is not the case for all LAs.

It'll probably be more helpful to her (and anyone else overseas) to have a list the places that definitely do accept non-residents, because that can be factored in to the assessment of where to locate if she cannot make timings fit the admissions rounds.

I meant only to highlight the issue to OP, so she knows she may need to navigate round Admissions Code deadlines and to check the policy for accepting applications in the areas she is considering.

Or, if going SS with non-distance tie-break, that she may need a council (anywhere!) that will process a non-resident application. Can you recommend one? She'll only need one, and it sounds (to me, at least) that you must know quite a few where this is evidently not the case.

Interestingly, checked local superselective website. Admissions USED to have a section referring to overseas applicants, but no longer does - either because that route is no longer available or because it is no longer viable (as they use distance as a tie-breaker for applicants with the same scores).

teacherwith2kids - either because that route is no longer available or because it is no longer viable

I posted earlier in the thread that OP would need to bear in mind that admissions criteria are reviewed regularly.

A number of Grammar schools have, in recent years, amended their catchment areas or introduced catment areas where previously one hadn't existed.

teacherwith2kids Which school is it you are referring to btw?

OP
Schools have changed vastly in the last 40 years.
You do not stand a chance at superselectives. (sorry: harsh but true)
Rather than relying on selection by aptitude, I suggest that you rely on selection by postcode.

Selection by postcode !.

That happens here in Buckinghamshire by the parents whose children have failed the 11+ . There are desperate to get their children in to the 'middle class' and selective modern schools.

I have experience of both types of school albeit a 'middle' class modern school. Two DDs Yrs 11 and 10 at grammar, DS year 9 at a very middle class modern school. 76% A- C GCSE 1.8% FSM which is lower than the girls grammar school !.