"You have to remember this is an independent school"

[abbieangel]

What exactly does this mean?

I know its an independent school. I am shelling out considerable sums to send my dc there. I sent my eldest dc there. There is a big gap between my eldest and my next two. I always thought I was " buying" a good environment for them to be safe in, a good education , which included being taught in small classes so they could do their best and some decent exam results. Whilst sport and other activities are important in an " all rounded" sense,they are not primarily important to me. Not so important for example,that my dc are taken out of classes to do sports fixtures or help with umpiring ( or even other dc are out of classes doing things and my dc are then being disrupted as lessons are re done when they return, or even their teachers always out doing something and my children being covered by someone else. The teachers may all be excellent but it is not the same.

Am I missing something here? Is this what Independent Schools are now about? Lots of extra curricular and activities and less emphasis on classroom lessons and good teaching? I do not recall any of this affecting my eldest. She got a string of GCSE and AAB at A level and went off to university. She still did extra curricular activities after school, not during lessons.

The school has an excellent ISI , excellent teaching, learning, pastoral care and a whole bunch of other things - but should I be considering taking them elsewhere? I want my dc in lessons, un disrupted by outside events , comings and goings and other things.

If this is an " Independent School" now and all are the same, should I send my dc state? Confused. Any experiences and advice.

It's hard to know whether it's within the norm at this school though LIZS, or goes beyond that. Fixtures during the school day are usually more frequent this term with the darker evenings. I have to say I'm very glad for my DC to balance schoolwork with other stuff, but if any was in tears but otherwise happy at the school I'd focus my efforts on sorting out the catching up, or I'd hoik them out of the team. What I wouldn't do is attempt to change the practice of the school, largely on the pragmatic ground that it wouldn't work.

abbieangel sounds as though there is some disorganisation here for teacher cover but as the others say if you have a sporty DC it happens in both sectors with half day ot all day tournaments and afternoon matches.

I think you need to discuss with your DD how she feels about. She may enjoy the balance, there is scientific evidence that sport interspersed with lessons aids learning. However if she is struggling to keep up and the lessons are suboptimal then you need to look for short term strategies whilst she has to remain there and think about other schools. Before deciding or speaking to the head it is worth taking a step back and working out how much academic time she is missing that actually causes a learning problem.

My DS was in his "exam year" when he missed a whole day of lessons to attend a sports thing, I wasn't bothered in the slightest in fact I would have been very annoyed if that had been given as a reason why he shouldn't go. I don't think it matters if your DC is super bright, average or dim I really genuinely don't think missing 1 day or the odd lesson is going to make that much difference to exam grades.

"all this theatre stuff drives me mad since it is a lot of time and energy. many children neither have the talent nor connections to get anywhere."
I personally like DS to go with his school to the theatre as much as possible, he's no budding actor but he's thoroughly enjoyed many of the productions he's seen. I'm quite envious frankly of some of the plays he's watched.

OP it sounds as if your school has staffing problems and maybe money problems if she hasn't seen her geography/English teacher for a long time due to their other committments. My DS's has fortunately never been at a school where this has happened.

My DS was in his "exam year" when he missed a whole day of lessons to attend a sports thing, I wasn't bothered in the slightest in fact I would have been very annoyed if that had been given as a reason why he shouldn't go. I don't think it matters if your DC is super bright, average or dim I really genuinely don't think missing 1 day or the odd lesson is going to make that much difference to exam grades

But it is not one day,or an odd lesson. It seems to be regular. Its not just her missing lessons, its also teachers being off piste too.

I wouldn't mind but the school doesn't really excel in sports and my DD is only "needed" because they are short on numbers and she has some above average ability. She is not "Sporty".

Besides, I do not think sport is going to get her far in life and she is going to need good exam results (or at least do her best) to have a reasonable career. It is my experience that at least being in class and having proper lessons helps with that.

I am considering the options.

abbie - you are right to be annoyed and concerned.

This is also a trend in DSs school.

What I think is driving it in our school is that the teachers are refusing to do any activity outside their normal 8.30 - 4.30 ours. It is a day school independent and some teachers are very much clock watching. It has become very much worse recently. Some of the staff do go an extra mile and do extra curricular outside 8.30 - 4.30 but increasingly not.

That means children missing lessons in order to do what used to be extra curricular after 4.30 pm.

I am so sick of it we are taking DS1 out of school for sixth form and he is going to a boarding school that has a heavy focus on teaching excellence AND extra curricular but that extra curricular goes on 24/7 after school, Saturday and Sunday because it is a boarding school.

We want extra curricular not just classroom excellence. We want the sport and drama and debating and all the other stuff but we don't want to miss out on teaching to get it because teaching staff are clock watching.

We have complained but nothing ever happens. So we are taking our money elsewhere.

I'm as bit confused. Surely the staff aren't missing lessons because there organising sporting practices, extra curricular activities, etc but on the other hand are they taking children to actual competitions? Assuming there against other schools all the independent schools I know generally hold matches/sporting fixtures against other schools on Tues/Thurs/Sat afternoons this is also when "games" is often scheduled into the timetable. Obviously there's going to be some days when this is not possible, major or very important championships etc, but usually any other sporting fixtures against other school that occur out of these times usually happen after school late afternoon/evening.
IME practices, etc usually occur before or after school or during lunch break.
Are you being told the whole story by the school? I come back to a point I made above it does sound like you school has staffing/money problems.

Quite an indictment of an independent school if the teachers in it are 'clock watching'. The teachers at my DC state school give unstintingly of their time, well beyond the end of the standard school day and have always done so for as long as my DC have been there (15 years). Some indie school teachers sound very below par, and super lazy.

Molio - well some of the teachers (I emphasise some) at DSs school are quite often seen out shopping in town during the day, rushing out of the school on the dot at 15.50 pm and also sneaking out at the back during what are supposed to be school concerts, etc that pupils are told they must attend after school.

I am suspicious that there is a quiet 'deal' been done where they forgo a pay rise but in lieu of that are in effect working to rule on a strict 8.30 - 15.50 day. There are what I would call traditional independent school teachers there who do work much differently and are excellent but there seem to be a hard core bunch of old lags who are quite comfortable and their careers coming to a close who are doing the bare minimum.

They seem to forget they have much shorter terms than state school so they should be putting in longer hours during term.

It gets decent results at GCSE but the A level results are not so good (hovering in league tables at the 200 - 300 mark) with only 5 - 6 Oxbridge each year. Some teachers teaching to the test and really not putting in any effort beyond that seems to be the cause.

abbie - An independent school is a business (despite its charity status) and my view is I treat them like a business. They don't get my money unless they deliver what I am paying for and what they say they offer. They say all the right things about extra curricular, sport and academic being in equal balance and aiming for excellence but really are not delivering any better and often worse than a decent state grammar about 40 minutes away.

I suggest you cast a critical eye over the alternatives and look at moving your DCs to another school. IME a failing school never responds to parent complaints. They treat you as 'unreasonable and bank on 'first time buyer' parents who know no better. Its an easier life for them.

Is the school small? If so what they are trying to do is stretch very thin resources. There are private schools where you are hired to teach English but also have to take on girls' tennis and the flute quartet. The numbers also mean that the pupils are spread thinly too so your child is good at sport so if there are only 40 in her year or so, then she's going to be hauled out for fixtures. It is problematic for staff too

Happygardening I come back to a point I made above it does sound like you school has staffing/money problems

and

Milo Quite an indictment of an independent school if the teachers in it are 'clock watching'. The teachers at my DC state school give unstintingly of their time, well beyond the end of the standard school day and have always done so for as long as my DC have been there (15 years). Some indie school teachers sound very below par, and super lazy

I do wonder about the pay/ money difficulties and staffing. Much of what you say is ringing bells. Several local independents have closed in the last three years. There are now two left standing - and one other a little further away. I have heard tales about staff and situations at the other school too.

However, I am not going all out to blame the teachers. Many of them are employed part time. Sometimes I wonder if there are any full time staff at all beyond the Head his deputy and a couple of others. I spoke to one who was out shopping in the middle of the day a few weeks ago (she and another member of staff were out having coffee in a nearby shopping mall) and she told me she was hourly paid and was out of school because she was only paid for the time she was teaching and nothing else and she was shopping in her trapped time - that's time she was not paid for but which fell between her lessons she was paid for. If teachers are being paid that way I think it might hardly be surprising they are clock watching or running events in lessons across other peoples time.

I have worked as an hourly paid employee and you do feel that enough is enough and you do not want to be in work giving all the extras when you do not get paid. Its a cheap way of paying people and it doesn't make them feel committed.

Whatever the situation, I do have to consider my DC's future. My dd is in year 11, so I cannot take her out. I will have to get private tuition. We have stopped her doing sports and fixtures , even though the PE teacher got shirty with me over it. Fortunately dd isn't too worried about not being in the team etc. She is upset that leaving the school will mean she loses her friends. I have said I do not wish her to stay for sixth form.

ds is younger. I have to decide whether to move him at the end of the year or sooner as he begins his GCSE next year.

I may have to look further afield than the two local schools though and in my area the only available comprehensive is not at all good I am afraid. It is difficult that this should happen now.

If most of the staff are part time and paid an hourly rate and only for teaching then its hardly surprising if they're only doing sports/extra curricular activities when they are meant to be teaching. Who wouldn't do the same?
It really does sound like the school is in financial difficulties, I believe you can look on the charities commission website if they're a charity or the companies house website if not see of they've posted some recent accounts. I think I would be moving my younger DC ASAP, I agree you can't move the one in year 11, lets hope you don't have too. Good luck.

Start looking at Sixth forms and alternative schools now. I'd move your DS ASAP, if this is the year he chooses his options, so he can choose them at his new school and get to know the teachers.
Do also consider State sixth form colleges and maybe further away state schools.

When I was looking at schools I looked carefully at transport routes and of they offered bus services.

My Indy school is very sporty but what you we describe sounds worrying.and I'd agree with posters above that it could be down to financial issues in the school. Worrying that they only pay teachers on a per hour basis! I'd agree with others abut looking at the accounts. Personally I'd not withdraw DC from the school based on the issues with sports alone, but if it's indicative of wide ranging management problems then I would certainly be looking around.

I always check the accounts of DSs school. A school in financial difficulty can close very suddenly and give you no choice but to move at a critical point.

Better to jump now than be pushed out by the school closing.

In your shoes I'd be checking the school's accounts, looking into 6th form options and hiring a tutor!

Non-selective indies can be dire in regard to balance between academics and sports (or their other obsession). I had assumed, wrongly (first time dealing with private ed) that the emphasis was always going to be on academics, and was totally shocked by the relentless obsession with sports in general (and thuggish herd games in particular). I was doubly cross as our interest in music was not supported nearly enough. The head was not remotely interested in resource reallocation. We have moved our eldest to a selective indy with a lot more balance - it has both four rugby teams and two orchestras and boys can choose their weighting. I'd advise moving accordingly, especially if there are financial issues.

"You have to remember this is an independent school"

A nearby independent was recently in the local paper with a press release about replacing all of its pianos with Steinways. Not long afterwards it was advertising in the job section for a full time administrator to manage "alumni relations". I would hate to think my hard earned cash was being spent so frivolously - which is just one of the reasons we stick to (outstanding) state schools.

Buying good pianos is a good use of my cash in my view and hardly frivolous. Though Steinways are sodding expensive. Still, a rather better use of cash than rugby field maintenance, building floodlighting and the salaries of teachers of pointless soft crap. My kids got to play on a Model D at a festival, and they are really lovely. Some good music conservatories are all Steinway - it is not such a weird idea, especially if you can get alumni to fund it. Was it Tonbridge by any chance?

You can also get a good deal from Steinway for doing this - a friend recently did it for his department in higher ed.
Also Steinways are a good investment - a rare thing the school can buy and always resell later to get all their money (and a bit more for inflation) back.