Latin or modern languages for 4Y olds?

[Manoxlon]

I would like my kids to learn an additional language and I'm struggling with whether it should be Latin or a "more useful" (whatever that means) modern language such as Mandarin or Spanish. I am leaning towards Latin for the intellectual rigour and the potential ease with which the kids can pick a Latin-derived language of their choice to learn in their teens. The obvious argument against Latin is that it's dead and nobody speaks it, so ultimately what's the point.

I did 3 years of Latin. I was crap at languages and told I would always be.
I now speak 2 languages fluently one of which is Italian. I can often make the connection with words in Latin but I can honestly say that Latin did not help me one bit in learning these languages - a good ear and actually music did !!!

I think for me it would be MFL first because it is more oral, more materials and they can have the delight of talking to someone in a shop/restaurant and being understood. They love being praised and congratulated on their attempts. It also helps them to develop good accents if they learn from a young age. For this reason I would also pick a language which you are likely to visit the country.

Once they start enjoying languages then you can introduce more. Ds (6) is learning French and Spanish, he now wants to learn Latin because dd2(8) is learning it and Italian as well as French and Spanish. At this stage the Latin is just for a bit of fun, although it has to be said that the only reason he is learning French and Spanish is because he wanted to (and we regularly go to both countries).

I would make this decision for practical reasons and add in more languages as they want to.

At 4, I would choose the one which the child is most likely to show an interest in (ie one where the teacher is properly trained in teaching very young learners) and has a wide supply of adequate stimulating materials.

Definitely in a group setting.

I'd go for Spanish or French at that age, just to get a feel for what language learning is about. They will then show their own interest in any others they want to learn, because it's never to be underestimated that if you don't feel any cultural "pull" (it's called the affective dimension) to a L2, then you can study it till the cows come home but you'll never be as good at it as the one you like more.

Should we stay - Thanks for the comments. When did your kids start learning the additional languages? Did they do it at school/ tutor or do you/ your nanny speak to them in those languages? I see the point of learning the language of holiday destination actually esp at that age. Good point.

Also can I ask what level of English/ French your DD2 had by the time she started Latin? Was she able to write a short essay for example? Did she know all the tenses? Just trying to gauge at what level it's feasible.

At DD's school they start a 2nd language aged 6 - but the first 2-3 years are mainly learning action songs, some simple phrases and relevant words (sister, brother, colours) that they can use in class and show off at home, plus some short poems with easy rhythm and rhyme. And it is a second language that is widely used locally, so a lot of the children are exposed to the language at home and within the extended family and community.

Not sure that 'intellectual rigour' is the best for this age group, compared to enjoying it and feeling capable of learning another language.

On the subject of Spanish/French/usefulness, I'm afraid my day job was shining through a bit and I was thinking about it from an employability perspective (from a trade with emerging markets perpective, Spanish is much more useful, German is useful because the economy is so strong in German speaking countries that they don't leave, so other countries can't hire them). Sorry for the derail, just wanted to explain where I was coming from.

From a pure language learning perspective - it's really a case of any language will do , ideally taught by a native speaker in a play-based environment.

Dd2 learns all at school. French from yr2 and Spanish yr3 (although Spanish is after school club), she has only just started Latin & Italian but is delighted at the links she can see between them and her existing languages. We also both speak French and dh is learning Spanish along with them at home. The emphasis at the moment seems to be on vocab and present tense - stuff they can actually use on holiday (well not the Latin). No doubt they will learn the grammar as they get further in. I guess that when a baby starts to learn English they don't learn the grammar initially, they learn to understand and speak it.

Ds does Spanish as extra club after school (plus once a day with dh) and French - dh is teaching, plus FIL is native speaker. He has been doing bits and pieces since reception but more formally since yr1.

The written side is not an issue at the moment but dd2 does struggle with writing and reading so I imagine she will have problems with that later on - there is some written work but not a big emphasis. For the moment she enjoys the oral and aural side of languages. I would go with one to start with and see whether they enjoy it.

Dd1 only does French and only at school because she has to. She has many different loves and skills so we encourage them instead.

Mine do french and mandarin (6 and 8) but started when youngest 5. They enjoy the lessons only 45 mins and the french one in particular is mosly done via games. The teacher had a few months break and my younger dd really disappointed and kept asking when the sessions would restart.

Make sure they have loads of free time but at a decent state school and isn't much time for languages and I regret not having started earlier. Went to france at half term and both girls keen to order things in shops etc. so for us really positive thing to do.

Have you considered Greek? It can be used on holidays/ in restaurants, etc but is also interesting for understanding etymology. Well done for starting young.

Also as an adult I find the utter difference of mandarin intimidating but kids just wade in. We have chinese students to stay in the summer so they get some practice as it's beyond me

Definitely modern.

I am a massive fan of Latin but for little ones you're far better making the most of their accent-learning-window being wide open by doing a modern language and then they can pick up Latin later if they want.

Besides, there are good modern language resources out there for very little kids but for Latin I don't know of anything aimed at a younger group than Minimus, which is for 7+.

Mandarin in a play-based setting. The aural components are entirely different to our ears and the eaier our ears are trained, the better later on.

For that reason music (playing/singing, not theory) is also very useful in aural/oral language acquisition.

My DD is at a school which covers ages 6months to 18years, it has a strong language department with around 30% of children leaving to study languages at Uni.

French starts at 3years singing songs, learning rhymes and playing games, mandarin in year 1, Spanish in year 3, Italian in year 4. Year 5 Latin is added in. In year 7 they choose 1 of the four languages modern languages they have done and continue Latin, in year 8 they add back in another of the previously studied languages and Greek. Year 9 study all four. Most children take two languages at GCSE and a few take three, children who take languages in sixth form often do an additional GCSE at this point.

Lonecat your school is massively unusual. I'm assuming it's not a UK state school? I'm curious to know what sort of school it is.

UK independent with a very unconventional approach, non-selective with some of the highest added value scores anywhere. Has very unconventional partnership with state sector schools with many state sixth form students coming for lessons in certain subjects ( won a national award for this) plus offer distance (Skype) learning to overseas students looking for particular subjects.

I gather research (sorry no link, going on what teacher said and aI did look it up shortly after that but it was a long time ago) says that learning a variety of languages helps develop the 'ear' and ability to learn a language. Just like music helps language acquisition as mentioned up thread. DD has done French all the way through from y1 and then also a second language so has done a year each of German, Spanish, Mandarin and Latin. There is no objective to get indepth - just lay good foundations for learning languages which I think is great and I do not consider myself a gullible parent who thinks it's trendy or some other pleasing epithet. I am seeing the benefits in DD grasping structure of English, listening skills etc and I know it will give her a head start when she decides which language(s) to study for GCSE.

OP - as long as the teacher is good then an additional language from year 1 is great if you have that option. I think it is encouraging if your DC has a real opportunity as a little one to use that language so Latin would not be a first choice in that regard but DD did Latin in Y5 and loved it.

"a year each of German, Spanish, Mandarin and Latin"

I am totally confused by such strategies. As a linguist, from a family of linguists, bringing up linguists, all advice and experience I have ever come across is perfectly clear: if you want to learn a language, you need a lot of exposure to it (several hours a week at least), from native speakers.

In many continental countries (and I'm not even mentioning so-called "poor" countries) kids finish elementary school fluent in their respective mother tongues as well as a pretty good level of English precisely because they start to learn English in addition to their mother tongue from a very young age!
Maybe Scandinavian countries...

But, it's true that exposure at a young age facilitates learning languages. Particularly getting the brain to recognise certain specific sounds and be able to reproduce them. In that sense, the more different the language the better.
Don't do Latin thinking it will help with modern languages. The structures are just too different these days, so definitely go for modern languages. I'd probably go for one your DC can use with other children locally.
Among all suggested languages don't forget Arabic, btw.

DS3 is fluent in Thai and Mongolian now but at school he just did French. His ability to acquire languages easily as an adult was primarily enhanced by his immersion in music throughout his young life. It switched his ears on!

Yes. If you want to learn a language you do need a lot of exposure and go in depth - but at primary level it is often about building the tools and skills so you can effectively do that later rather then many instances where no language is taught at primary level at all. As I said the goal was not to turn them into a linguist at that age but to create the right foundations so they were better equipped when they did start to focus on one or two languages later on. DD also knows she had a flair for German but not French so it will make GCSE choices more effective too.

Maybe French or Spanish? DS started french in nursery and Latin in year 4ish and he loves it. He has a good ear though.

4 is just too little to be learning formally. Counting, basic words, songs... It has to be fun. The kid has many years for formal education ahead - he should be learning social skills and games at 4!

My dd (3.5), did a bit of French at her preschool - think this is pretty common now? Also a bit with us, and we now are very fortunate to have a childminder who is also able to teach her some French. She seems to really enjoy it - it's a lot of songs and things at this stage.
There's a lady locally who does "French for Fun" club with young children, but won't start a preschool club, despite myself and a few other parents asking (which I'd her prerogative, of course, and I can't say I blame her!)

OP asked about writing essays in Latin - it doesn't happen. There is very little translation into Latin in either the Cambridge or Oxford Latin courses (text books used for common entrance or gcse). There is no point being able to translate into Latin. If you live in a big city there will be international nurseries or playgroups to which you can take your child. My children are older but I know of French, German, Japanese, Russian, Italian, Swedish, Dutch, Danish & Portuguese language schools for children all easily accessible from my home (25 mins max journey).

My 10yo (secondary starter, not in UK - Germany) has just started Latin and adores it. But 4?

Your typical 'couple of hours a week' language-class exposure is not going to create a fluent speaker. It's what kids here get in English at primary level and all it does is provide a tiny bit of fun familiarisation with the language. Not harmful by any means, but not really productive either. Kids still leave school speaking pretty darn serviceable English - because it is given a high curricular priority at secondary level, treated as a core subject alongside German and maths. That is what is wrong (IMHO) with MFL in the UK. It's treated as a nic e extra, but not as really important.

You're being too kind Hetero. In recent years MFL have been treated with something akin to contempt in the state sector, which is a massive shame, with shockingly few state school kids taking it further, hence the ease with which one can bag a place at a top uni for MFL. STEM subjects are king.