What do you hope/expect from independent primary + secondary schools?

[Jzee]

Having looked at quite a few independent primary schools I am starting to feel that apart from small class sizes they are not offering much for their fees. I was expecting lage playgrounds large rooms , good IT facilities, good music facilities, varied languages and maybe even a swimming pool thrown in!

BTW I had no intention of going down the independent primary route as I believe that all children are entitled to good free education, but unfortunately that doesn't appear to be an option.

May be depends where you are in the country. I can mention it because she's left - my daughter was here and the facilities are good - www.nlcs.org.uk/junior/index.shtml It often gets the best exam results of any school in the UK or at least top 5. Doesn't have a lake though, just a pool. The other daughter got a lake - www.habsgirls.org.uk/ and a pool but really it's the hardworking ethos, the fact all the other girls are really clever etc which matters more than grounds.

BUT some private schools are really not as good as state schools. You do need to do a lot of research. My twins' one has lots of rugby and cricket pitches (no pool but they go to their sister senior school for that).

We don't even get particularly small class sizes (20 rising to 24 in juniors)

What we do get is freedom from the restraints of the National Curriculum, no SATS, the fact that music, drama and sport is valued just as much as academic subjects. I don't know what actual music "facilities" there are but they do have a specialist music teacher and lots of choirs, and other music/drama groups.

Dd's school does have a pool (they use the one at the attached senior school) but I don;t beleive it is a necessity as long as they go swimming somewhere.

The whole ethos of a caring environment, a wide ranging curriculum and wonderful staff.

"I had no intention of going down the independent primary route as I believe that all children are entitled to good free education."
That is a very interesting statement. What if the state doesn't offer the best education. Do socialist parents with money then choose to stay within the state system because that's the right moral thing to do because if all middle class parents opted out of state schools other children would be damaged? I've often read stories of left wing liberal judges and others who sent their children to the nearest sink state comprehensive in London as a matter of principle and the children in their 20s sometimes not being that happy that they were sacrificed on the altar of their parents' principles.

You are focusing a lot on the premises/facilities in your list of must-haves.
Of course well-maintained and spacious premises are important for safety and attractive to be in, but we chose our small, swimming-pool-less, independent primary for its strong, explicit, pastoral ethos (and its small classes and good music). That's something you can get a strong sense of at open days, by talking to other parents and the children - which potential parents are encouraged to do at ours. It can be lied about in a prospectus though.
We were also making a firm and conscious decision to opt out of SATs and the constraints of the national literacy and numeracy strategies.
You don't need to be surrounded by other clever children at primary level to do well either. Just be in an environment where all children of a wide range of abilities are encouraged and supported to do their very best. The high ratio of teaching and support staff to pupils helps with this.
We love our school although I expect its ambiance and ethos would attract howls of derision from Xenia

And in London or any large city you are always near an acceptable modern leisure centre which can be used for swimming lessons. We didn't want a school where the maintenance of this sort of arguably redundant facility was added to the bill.

Woops, I'm not just seaching for a school with a swimming pool and I'm not a socialist with lots of money I'm merely working hard and want my child to have a decent education. I am not even focusing on the facilities, I just naively thought that it would go without saying that an independent school would provide a good education and the facilities might be better especially with the fees which they are asking.

Do socialist parents with money then choose to stay within the state system because that's the right moral thing to do because if all middle class parents opted out of state schools other children would be damaged?

No they don't - but they are full of angst about making decisions that are against their basic principle i.e. they probably do belive the latter part of you sentence.
Thinking about it I guess being a socialist with money is a bit of a betrayal in the first place!!

The private primary our DS went to had huge immaculate grounds, loads of sports pitches, a stream, a swimming pool plus lots of emphasis on music, singing and such like. When you've been used to state primary school "entertainment" then you listen to a private school choir or music recital it just blows you away that such young children can produce such incredible music.

They had specialist teachers for sport right through the school, and specialist science, art and French teachers from Y5 upwards.

You will find though that private schools all differ in facilities, standards etc just the same as state schools do. We were lucky.

Ours does have all those facilities ! Agree it will vary a lot according to where it is situated and some of the sports facilities might be a walk or bus ride away from the main school. Also there is on site before/after school care, a range of extra curricular activities and a caring/sharing ethos.

Like all schools, they differ vastly. I have just removed my DD from our private school as it is basically a poorly run school that doesn't encourage bright children. There is a high turn over of staff and the head is not well liked or respected by parents or teachers.

You have to look at all the schools and see for yourself, just because you have to pay doesn't mean the school is any good.

Our school had a report done in Oct 04 and I have seen little changes to the school since then. So we voted with our feet to an oversubscribed church school that I am thrilled to bits with.

The cook makes her own bread, we have cello lessons, she works at her pace (there are other bright children there). The other school we were in a class of 12 and DD often had to work on her own. Now it is brilliant, class of 29 all working at the pace they are ready for and DD sits on a table with other bright kids.

It's free! Yippee!

Oh and just becuase there is a pool, it doesn't mean they'll get to use it (from experience). Just because there are cricket nets doesn't mean anyone will teach them bloody cricket. Sorry, again I have learned this from experience.

We do have all the things you are wanting, but the feel of the place, the children that emerge from the other end, and recommendations in their hundreds from people with children at the school, and who have recently left the school are the things that most sold it to us - a genuine desire to find something every child is good at, and bring out the best in them - yes all you would hope for in a state school, but only a few lucky people get that. Some private schools are c* though - i looked round several just in case the boys didn't get into the school they go to - snobby, rubbish facilities, poor teaching, as bad as some of the poorer state schools we saw. I have only met in rl two socialists who really stayed true to their principles and sent their children to local state schools - all the others have moved to get into the catchment areas of the most desirable free schools locally. As for us, well I'm a pinko liberal, and DH was so badly let down by the state system himself that he is prepared to compromise own feelings for the Dss.

Yes the true socialists stay in inner London and ensure their child is the only middle class and possibly only white child in the 98% bangladeshi one, I suppose or the council estate in fact bussing the child in to make sure they're doing their bit to ensure a good mix. The trouble is that the children of those intellectuals in Hampstead who in the 60s/70s were committed to comprehensives is that their children were then changed from how the family was, may be changed for the better but did not then have in common with their parents things that might then achieve family cohesiveness.

As for sports facilities, yes some might not be used. That's not been our experience at Habs, NLCS or even my twins' school now. The sport is great (and he won his rugby match today so very pleased all round).

I would tend to say avoid the samall set up in someone's house with very few children private schools - they often go to the wall and standards can be worse than state schools and pick the ones like say my brother's royal grammar prep in Newcastle, prep bits of St paul's, junior bits of some of the better bigger private secondaries and always look at destinations of leavers and numbers of scholarships. If they all go on to the worse private school in the area that's usually a bad sign. If they all get into Manchester Grammar, The Perse or whatever then they're probably pretty good.

But some of us are not interested in scholarships and academics. Some of us don't have academic children. I think my dd is academic but more important at prep age is the ethos of a school.

I chose her current school ahead of the 2 "posh ones" for it's ethos. Most of the kids from one of the posh preps go on to the senior school attached to mydd's (the other has an attached Catholic state grammar)

If I was in the next county I would certainly chose the smaller, nice atmosphere prep rather than the very prestigious Kings School

Jzee - I understand what you're saying about value for money - but I wouldn't underestimate the value of small class sizes - I really think that's a huge advantage to have.

Xenia mentioned "the samall set up in someone's house with very few children private schools" - I went to one for three years and it was a fantastic experience - I had all the one to one attention I needed at that time and I am absolutely sure I would not have achieved nearly as much (academically and otherwise) in another school. And it had no facilities of its own whatsoever other than one classroom and a garden!

Hear hear Julienetmum

are small classes really the be-all-and-end-all a lot of people seem to think though?

My dd1 was at a school with only 24 children in total - there were 12 in her class, and only 3 in her year. As it happened, the two other girls in her year ganged up against her and we ended up moving her to a different school eventually as the bullying got completely out of hand. I would never put her in a school with such small classes again - there was no choice when it came to playmates.

rr, that can work but some of them are not so good so I suppose you need to do more due diligence., My father sent me to a very small private school and although I'd never go back and say I wish XYZ I thin we'd have done better in a more academic one which at least had things like a choir and some other girls I felt I had things in common with.

If I had children who weren't so clever (not that mine are by any means brilliant) I would even more so want them in private schools for small classes, individual attention. I think there is more value added for the less bright child in a private school than a clever one who will do well anywhere. Also they can gain confidence at other skills. One of my twins generally does less well than his brother but he is so keen on sport and it's great to see him have something he knows he's better than that constant compartor that is twinship. Not that I like them to compare themselves at all.

I agree with julienetmum. The pre-prep we're looking at for DS has class sizes of 13 in Reception rising to... umm... 20-23 in Year 3, I think, which are a bit better than he'd get in the state system, but the big pluses for us are not having to stick to the National Curriculum, not having to do SATS, the fact that they have specialist teachers in for music, science and maths, and the fact that they place so much emphasis on enthusing the children with learning and on developing a "have a go" attitude combined with consideration for others.

The "facilities" as such aren't much to write home about -- the school buildings are quite homely (which I rather like, actually), there's no pool and they have to take a bus to get to playing fields that they borrow from another school, but it's the ethos and attitude I value most.

I also like the fact that we are planning on a separate pre-prep school rather than one that covers the whole 4-11, 4-13 or 4-18 spectrum. Based on how he is at the moment I'm fairly confident that this is the right school for him as an individual -- then we'll have a bit of time to see how he deals with school, how academic he is, where his wider interests lie, etc., before settling on the right school for him as an individual in the next phase.

That said, right at the moment we're in the catchment area for a really good state school for which many of the same things could be said -- but by the time we get to DS's primary school application time we'll have moved and almost certainly won't be. Hence the private option.

Julienetmum-feel free not to answer but curious to know if you are on the Wirral?

No, I'm not Marialuisa, I'm in Staffordshire.

DD's state primary had nearly 40 per class (3 years per class though), small rooms, appalling music dept, hardly any grass, appalling meals (cooked in another school and delivered) oh my list goes on.. (won't even start on the teachers which is why DD left).

Her private prep has HUGE grounds, woods, small classes (no more than 20 in each year BUT generally less), fantastic music dept, specialist teacher's even at year 3, the food is out of this world, language opportunities, stables (lol) and the teacher's treat the children as if they are human!

I second Tallulah on listening to a music/choir performance - absolutely amazing

Message withdrawn

wangles does illustrate some of the big differences you can find.
bloss' is mostly what I've paid for - higher expectations. Perhaps top of any list.

Small classes not so great, small choice of friends and if it is private you'll find they come from far and wide. We found it didn't help our DD and she wasn't average but well ahead and the school wouldn't/didn't cater for her.