Crap school vs good school

[MsThing]

Just after other views really.

DS is currently in private school but will be moving into state for secondary. This was always the plan for £ reasons and because our local state school (A) is Ofsted outstanding and gets decent results. It's the most oversubscribed school in the city despite it not getting the best results compared to other state schools. I thinks it's trading on its reputation to some extent.

However, a recent divorce means I now live a few miles away and my local school (B) was put in special measures a few years ago but became an academy a couple of years ago. Its results are generally terrible but the high achiever group does as well as at any school. I like to think DS would be in that group but who knows. It hasn't had an Ofsted since converting which makes me nervous. Locally it has a crap reputation and many people bus their kids to other schools in outlying towns.

DS spends 50% of time with me, rest with ex-H so in theory we can apply from either address. School A is obvious choice but means I have to spend another 7 years doing the school run as there's no public transport option (would have to go into city centre and out again which would be at least an hour each way assuming no waiting for buses ). School B has a school bus from ex-H's house (because it's unpopular and therefore has a massive catchment).

I'm going to visit school B and won't choose it if it seems crap but if it seems ok then I want to give it a chance; results and Ofsted aren't the be all and end all are they? Ex-H is adamant about school A but it would make my life difficult (I'm a single parent, he's already moved the next Mrs in). I'm worried that school B would be the wrong choice but surely I need to consider the family impact rather than just the grades DS might get? I wouldn't be able to work a full day if I had to drop off and collect (which I would have to half the time).

Good school. Could your DS go back to your ex's house every day and you collect him from there after work on your days? Not ideal I know but it would mean you could work full days.

Go with your gut feeling when you visit the school. Are the children happy and engaged. Don't be afraid to ask probing questions.

That's tricky.

Believe me, I am about a million miles away from pushy parent territory and in fact frequently worry I am leaning more towards the laissez faire attitude than is healthy, but I do think the grades your son might get are hugely important in terms of his future options and choices.

Yes, high achieving students may do reasonably well but I have to admit it would be a cold day in hell before my DCs set foot in a SM school. I think given its crap reputation, your DS may well struggle socially - from a private primary to state outstanding is one thing, but from a private primary to a state SM where parents who are interested, involved and concerned DON'T send their kids! - might be a step too far.

SM schools often struggle to recruit and keep the best staff. Lots of turnover and I know of one school near us where the children have had NINE science teachers in the two year GCSE course! I do firmly believe parental involvement is important, more important than anything, but even so and even with private tutors, how can any child achieve their best with that sort of turnover?

Having said that I sympathise with your predicament. Why can't DS stay with his dad a bit more, or use public transport?

Yes, I pretty much think the grades your DS might get are more important than navigating a tricky school run. In a couple of years he'll be able to travel in on his own.

hmm, I went to a crap school (in the bottom 25 of the country). I turned out fine, I was academic and interested in learning, I went to uni and became a solicitor, my close friends from school have also done well professionally. That said, I do sometimes begrudge my parents for sending me to that school rather than a better one. For example, in hindsight I didn't get much support from the school when applying to uni, I didn't realise the uni I chose wasn't great and none of the teachers ever mentioned that i could have probably got in somewhere better. We missed out on experiences as most of us pupils were feom families with low income (no ski trips at my school etc).

However, I think the situation now is different to mine 15 years ago. Results are more important to schools and I am a firm believer in that going to uni is not the be all and end all.

Over an hour commute for a teenager is very long and will hinder any opportunities to be involved in extra curricular activities (the one thing my school was good at was sport and I could compete in athletics as I could walk to school) unless you or your EXH can pick up but as you said, it will impact family life.

Have a look around each school and see how you and your child feel.

I don't want him to stay with his dad more! The bus could be an option when he's a bit older but I wouldn't feel safe sending him off on 2 buses when he's just 11. It's too far to cycle and there's also the cost of me needing to drive to work half the time when I could commute for free (cycle/run) if he was in a school local to me. I also think it's important that he can get to school on his own and it seems crazy to make him spend 2+ hours on a bus each day when there are other options. Obviously those other options need to be acceptable.

School A is half the distance away of his current school so I'm consoling myself with the hope that the commute would be much easier if we end up with A. I guess I need to visit B and see if it's still a decision that needs to be made.

There is a school C that is ok. It'd be a short bus ride from my house but there's no public transport from his dad's.

Forgot to add: is B still considered to be in special measures given that it converted or is it considered a 'new' school?

I didn't mean stay with his dad, I just mean go there after school until you can get him after work. I realise you, rightly, wouldn't want to miss out on time with him. Could that work as an interim suggestion and could you ever be in a position to move closer to the school?

I went to an awful school and I have done well for myself but I could have done so much better and I think life is much more competitive these days for DC to get jobs etc. For me it was mostly that there wasn't a culture of learning and listening so even though our teachers weren't all bad, the class I was in was always so disruptive that we learnt at a much slower pace.

How long is the bus journey from your ex-H's house to your local school B - is that an hour's journey too?
Have you bought the property that you're living in now? If it's only rented would you consider moving to a more convenient location for school A next year even if it's just on a better transport route?
What if your ex-H refuses to agree to your ds attending school B (or C)? What happens then?

I would be looking very carefully at the staffing for school B. What is turnover like? Are they able to fill all their positions easily? If not, how many lessons are taught by supply staff? Same experience as Lunarstarfish. We have one qualified science teacher to teach 750 pupils, so most are taught by supply teachers who are not qualified science teachers, but we have to have someone vaguely capable of keeping order. Do not believe the lie that money is thrown at "failing" schools.

I don't agree that results are the be all and end all. But you really do want stable staffing if you have the option. It isn't just about the grades, but the general environment that he will be in every day.

Of course some schools have an ancient reputation that is out of date. But usually when a school is good, word spreads quickly, and actually good schools do tend to result in better grades.

Will there be other kids do the same bis journey? My son catches a bus at 7.45 and has to change buses. It's more common than you think. Also, as soon as they start senior school, they grow and mature really quickly.

You should first check the admission rules, certain other mums netters PRH etc will confirm but I think childs place of residence is the address where child benefit is paid and you would be measured from that address on applications even on shared custody.

I wouldn't touch the crap school in a million years. It's one thing going for a SM primary where to all intents and purposes you can cover most of the work yourself but it's totally different at secondary.

In my opinion it's too much if a gamble - you want the top and middle sets to be children who want to learn and have a good attitude to learning, if they don't have that then you will have an uphill battle.

My eldest is at an outstanding comprehensive in the top sets. Behaviour is generally very good, the lessons apparently move at a fast pace where they don't stop and move from one task to another with no breaks. In a recent maths test they were talking about having got rubbish marks and how disappointed they were with their marks. Mine got a 6b and this particular friend got a 6c for the test. They are year 7 so actually that was very good but not even close to the top. If you are coming from a private school I think that's the kind of top set you're probably going to be looking for.

Do secondary schools use "feeder" schools as one of their admissions criteria? As in priority is given to children from named local primaries.

Because if school A is oversubscribed and your not in the catchment (if your child benefit is paid to your address not your XH) or even if you are in the catchment but not attending one of the named schools, then you might struggle to get in coming from the private school which is unlikely to be a feeder.
I don't know if that's still a consideration wether feeder schools still exist.

And as with the crap school ofsteds aren't everything, neither are they with the good school, they maybe over achieving because of the pressure to get good results and ofsteds, it may not make for happy pupils. I think you have to go and get a feel for all three schools tbh.

Thanks all. I've checked with the council and we can choose which address to apply from as it's 50/50 custody. However, I also checked what would happen if we didn't agree and they'd look at child benefit (me), registered doctors (me) etc so I'm pretty confident I'd get my choice if it came to it.

The school bus from ex-H to school B is a dedicated yellow school bus so takes about 30 mins but none run from my house to A because A has a tiny catchment. I own my house, I bought it with every intention of driving DS to school A but a year of long school runs to his current school have made me rethink.

I will ask about staffing at B when I visit. School A won't let me visit, they just fob me off and say to go to the open day but it's on a Saturday so hardly gives a feel for the school in session. Saying that, I had to push for a visit to B in session.

Had a thought last night that I could get the bus into town with DS in the morning then he only has to get one bus on his own. Still a long journey but solves my issue of having to pay to park in town.

School A sounds crap to me - sorry, I've always had the policy that a school which doesn't allow visits pretty openly gets a huge black mark.

Go to see school B. If you know anyone who works there (especially trainee teachers and TAs or cover supervisors) then talk to them.

How resilient is your son? How early do they set/stream at school B?
DH and I both went to crap schools (they vied for bottom of the national league tables when they first came out), but we did fine. It helps if you are good at the one thing the school does okay for (Music for DH) or you are one of those characters who everyone knows (me).

What other schools are there around? You say A doesn't get the best results for its city? Is there any hope of getting your son into any of the others?

One more thing to consider if you choose local school B; who else will be joining your ds on the bus from your ex-H's area? You might be imagining a friendly bunch of Year 7s when in fact it's a group of previously excluded Year 10s the new academy can't wait to see the back of. Often new academies make changes to their admissions criteria/catchment areas to try and reduce the number of 'undesirables' coming in from other boroughs - but they might be on the bus with your ds for a few years yet.

What are the GCSE result like at school B? Are they realistically good enough to get him into a decent 6th form elsewhere? What are the extra curricular like? Will he get a chance to do DofE, maths challenges, debating & chess? Is there an option for private music lessons? Do the football academies come in to do training? Is the sport broad enough so that it's not just the footballers who get a chance but also those who don't like team sports? Is there the option for triple science at GCSE?

If the answer to these is mainly no and you have another option then I don't see what you would gain from going there other than a shorter journey.

For other children, the address to be used will be the address where the child lives the majority of the time. In other cases, where the child spends an equal time between their parents/carers, it will be up to the parent/carers to agree which address to use. Where a child spends their time equally between their parents/carers and they cannot agree on who should make the application, we will accept an application from the parent/carer who is registered for child benefit. If neither parent is registered for child benefit we will accept the application from the parent/carer whose address is registered with the child’s current school or nursery.

This is Surrey CCs statement on admission, it does give the parents a chance to choose the address, with tie breaker criteria if they cannot agree.

I have in writing from the admissions team that we can decide which address to apply from. Rules are broadly same as Surrey.

I really wouldn't move my child from a private school to a school in special measures.I really wouldn't.I actually find it astonishing that you are even thinking of it.But then I'm speaking as a mother of a child who moved from a state school in year 9 to a private school .She is expected to get all A's but her very bright friends back in her old school have been badly taught,not taught how to revise,no regular home work and maybe a handful got A's /A's last year ( very bright high level sats intake - very white middle class ' good' comprehensive).