What to expect for 12k

[sparklingsky]

How typical are class sizes of 24 in independent secondary schools? It seems a bit when fees are 12k. One other independent school in the town is 10% cheaper but with similar class sizes. I'd appreciate a (reality) check.

Look at their results rather than class sizes - 12K is cheap for independent secondary!

From the Eton website (boys start at 13);

When boys arrive at Eton they usually find themselves in classes of 20 to 24. As they progress and they make their own choices about what to learn, the class sizes tend to reduce, the size depending on the subject and its popularity in a given year. A typical GCSE class in D block (year 11) would contain about 15 boys learning a second modern language, for example, and 20 in mathematics. Once AS-level and A-level choices are made, class sizes reduce again, to about 12 in subjects such as mathematics, or to smaller classes in subjects chosen by fewer boys.

And, of course, Eton is £35k.

It partly depends on age. At infant level a smaller class might be good. By secondary, my sons experience has been that they benefit from a large class (eg 22-24) where there is more competition and challenge. Key thing at all levels is quality of teachers.

I think 24 is quite a good size, though I'd choose 18-20 if I could. That's big enough to suggest the school is in good financial shape, and for there to be a choice of friends and a range of views and ideas in class IYSWIM.

That's reassuring meandjulio - about class size and financial viability. We've already had one unexpected and sudden school closure.

My grand-daughter is at an independent school (all girls and quite small - approx. 400 in school) and up until this year (yr 10 so doing GCSE options) there were only 12 in the classes. She started in Yr 7. Fees are around 12K. I think class size does matter and 24 in a class sounds too many - it's a 2 form entry so it isn't that they don't have enough pupils in the school. They mixed them up a bit at the end of Year 8 - not quite sure why.

Agree about financial viability. Beyond survival, it means they are more likely to be able to afford to offer a wide range of subject choices higher up the school and do decent extra curricula stuff.
24 is fine as long as the behaviour is good and any disruptive pupils are dealt with effectively.
Unlike in the state sector there is unlikely to be much targeted support for learning difficulties. And there will be no classroom assistant.

It also depends on the

Sorry - iPhone posted it for me too soon!

Was just saying that it also depends on the number of full-time adults in the classroom.

Dd2 is in Reception. They are 21 in her class and have a full time teacher+TA there. In addition they have another TA in the afternoons. And extension teachers come to do math/English sessions with the more advanced kids.

So, the number in the class should be looked in a context.

Also - 24 is still better than 30!

According to all of the research and data, class size has no impact on outcomes.
Its the levelling, discipline and possible extra adults that make the difference.

In London suburbs 24 is rather common in independent schools - even primary/prep years. I don't think it's a big deal in secondary at all.

That's round about the size of the classes at DS' school (Edinburgh day school- fees a bit over £10k pa). His Mandarin class is much smaller - 12ish I think, and as he starts to specialise in later years, other classes will be smaller as well, but 24 is fine for me. DD's state school class last year had 32!

TalkinPeace can you link me to "all the research and data" about class size and outcomes, or give more information please. I don't understand what you mean by "levelling" and where is the research that "levelling, discipline and extra adults" make the difference.....and what difference?

I'm always wary when people talk about "all the research says" because there is rarely a consensus of opinion on research issues and ime research on any given topic varies a great deal, and different conclusions are drawn.

I don't claim to have any evidence about class size and good outcomes at GCSE/A Levels. FWIW I think the die is cast in the first 5 years of life, (especially the first 3 years) as a child will never learn again at such a rate in his entire life. If a child is brought up in a nurturing environment and is stimulated in an age appropriate way, and parents make learning a fun thing, then this gives the child a head start when entering formal education. Teachers can only build on the raw material..........

My grand-daughter said recently how surprised she was when she was in Yr 7 at her independent school (12 in class) when a girl put up her hand in the maths class and said "I don't get that Mrs X" and the teacher spent a long time explaining. My GD went to a state primary whereas most of the girls in the senior school had been in independent ed from the age of 5, and were obviously used to asking questions and being given explanations. My GD said "no-one would have said anything like that at primary..." Again no evidence but thought it said a lot really.

Incidentally I am opposed to private education but it wasn't my call and my GD is thriving and is very happy at school so that's good enough for me.

I think people are unduly hung up about class sizes. When my children were in their state primary there were quite often 30 in the class and they learned well enough. It's whether or not the teacher is any good that matters, and how much extra TA support is given to children who might become disruptive or need special attention.

Nana Google is your friend : start with the PISA website

TalkinPeace may well be referring to the John Hattie research. John Hattie conducted a large meta-analysis of the factors related to successful outcomes. It was a very well designed and robust study.

He divides the factors into teacher, student, home, school factors (there were 6 in total). The teaching and learning factors that made the biggest difference were those which made the process of learning explicit in the classroom. His book about this is called visible learning.

Class size had no significant effect on attainment ('grades' were the outcome measure). I think that the widely held conclusion on this was to do with the fact that, with a smaller class, there may have been more interaction between teachers and students, but it was not the quantity of the interaction that mattered. Unless it was also qualitatively difference, it had no effect.

I visit lots of schools in my job (ed psych) and I do see this in practice, to a certain degree. That having been said, I have chosen to send my own children to an 'alternative' school (Montessori) and the small class sizes did appeal to me, because of the opportunities for individualised learning this brings with it (which is key to a Montessori curriculum).

18-24 fairly standard in N London girls schools. The Mount in Mill Hill had much smaller sizes - and it went bust. Tutor groups etc much smaller for A-levels.

I had 3 in my class for one O-level (state school) and I failed it

What to expect for £12k? £13k next year is probably the answer. To avoid that, class sizes of 24 or slightly more (it makes no real difference, as noted above) should be welcomed and, if necessary, demanded by the parent body.