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Please could we have a heated debate on the best girls' school in the land? Or does mn education board only really deal with boys' education?

102 replies

malefridgeblindness · 10/03/2015 13:23

I've just read the latest eton-wincoll fight thread. It puzzles me why so many of the threads here are about boys' education. So much care seems to be taken to ensure our sons' have the perfect balance of academia and sports, music and drama, but I haven't seen the same debate about what's best for our daughters. I've never seen the sort of evangelism about girls' schools you see about eton and wincoll.

What's happening?

OP posts:
Molio · 15/03/2015 11:43

MN164 you're quoting an extremely bland comment about the general incidence of eating disorders which sheds no light on what amounts to an epidemic of both those and self-harming in certain schools. In itself, it shows nothing. I had reason to have several conversations with the academic leading that research over a period of months and that sentence was not any sort of main conclusion, just an opener.

To suggest that schools experiencing a far higher incidence of these problems than any other type of school will therefore be better able to deal with them is putting the cart before the horse, if you don't mind me saying. I think the issue is fairly complex tbh, much more so than you seem to realise.

TalkinPeace · 15/03/2015 13:50

I went to a GDST and hated it : but that had a lot more to do with where my head was at the time, and significant problems with the management of the school.
One of my siblings went to a big name gels boarding school and loved every second of it
Another of my siblings went to a big name gels boarding school and was invited to leave

TBH historically schooling was much more important for boys, so the boys schools are longer standing and more famous.

Girls schools are lower key and still catching up with the boys.
BUT
Lots of boys private schools are having to go co-ed to survive

Slummiemummie · 15/03/2015 13:58

Just returned from Wycombe now seeing my DD for mothers day, not going to get into a heated debate but I saw yday with my own eyes happy productive girls working together to put on an amazing dance show with girls who are not in it watching and cheering friends on. It's an amazing school. All schools have children with issues, I work in a school myself. It's just wrong to have a go at particular schools based on second hand info. Anyway there's a huge waiting list for places this year so those parents were obviously happy with what they saw!

Poisonwoodlife · 15/03/2015 14:30

To revert to OPs post I think schools like Eton and Winchester have such a long tradition at the centre of the British establishment that it leads parents to develop the sort of zeal you refer to.

Women have never been at the centre of the British establishment, let alone women from certain schools, with the possible exception of SPGS and it's procession of the daughters of the political and intellectual elite. Secondly, again with the possible exception of SPGS, few girls' schools have a long history of being destination schools. The league tables for girls' schools, and indeed leaver's destinations, even fifty years ago were very different (some of the schools then top do not even exist now), let alone 100 or 200 years ago, and of course though often led by blue stockings who had themselves broken the academic glass ceiling and encouraged female empowerment there was still a lot of girls in those schools looking to more traditional female role models. Even so, though SPGS does have that history there is still a sense of it sitting uncomfortably on it's perch as was manifested in the recent thread, partly because it is not so confidant in it's skin as to not be implicitly constantly striving to be at the top of the league tables (leading to parental dissonance with what is on offer / the school's resulting reputation). Winchester and Eton are not afraid to do their own thing in terms of selection and education even if it costs them the top of the league tables.

Molio and MN164 Having experienced DDs at both very selective girls' schools and very selective coed, and know DDs at Boarding Schools including WA, and had intimate contact with girls' with eating disorders and mental health issues I would say there is an element of truth in what both of you say. I do think those issues very much orginate in the family background and there may be a correlation between the incidence and very selective girls' school because those are the schools that competitive parents (not saying that those issues exclusively orginate with competitive parents but most girls with those issues in selective girls' school do come from backgrounds where the self indulgent parental behaviour is the root cause of their insecurity) tend to choose. The incidence of these issues in those schools is not so consistent as to suggest that the school environment is the main causal factor, in one year there was one girl with issues, in another ten had been treated at the Priory by Year 9. Of course hearing that will instantly confer a reputation on a school. What I do think is that in a year with a lot of girls' with issues, an all girls' environment can amplify the problems. It is easier for attention seeking insecure girls to manipulate group norms and foster a dysfunctional environment in which there is exclusive, disruptive and indeed predatory (in terms of the opposite sex) behaviour, with resultant misery for all there, but only if there are enough of them to overcome the values and norms of the other girls. That sort of behaviour happens less in co-ed schools. The presence of boys is as much a civilising force on girls as their presence is on boys, and the extremes of their behaviour.

However we have also experienced the benefits of being able to thrive academically in an all girl environment, it is right for some girls. Sadly some boys do seem to absorb the values of patriarchy early and seem to need to have an upper hand / dominate the dialogue, especially in STEM subjects. For some girls it is better to be inspired and develop the academic confidence away from that environment so that they can emerge ready to tackle it in the real world.

GentlyBenevolent · 15/03/2015 14:52

I went to a very well known (in its area) all girls comp (former grammar school, so it was a slightly weird mix while I was there of adapting its ethos for the brave new world of a non selective (by exam) intake). It was a wonderful school, and still is today (my best fiend's daughters are all at or have been at the school) and I really wish my girls were at that school - sadly we live a couple of hundred miles away so it's not an option.

JillyR2015 · 15/03/2015 15:04

NLCS is the best school in the land, no question.

Want2bSupermum · 15/03/2015 15:15

I think girls schools are wonderful. I went to one that has now closed and the other has amalgameted with another but remains single sex.

There was a lot of talk at school about eating disorders. In my year of 30 girls there were 3-4 girls with body issues including self harm. I think the home life of these girls was more of an influence. We had quite a few girls who were in care due to being abused at home. Knowing what I know now I'm just shocked that there weren't more girls with problems.

WA was a wonderful school in the 80s and if my DD was academic I would consider that school. I would also consider CL, and Malvern St James.

If your an army family do look at Monmouth. I think it's a great school for a child that is middle of the road academically. Wonderful sports and drama there.

Want2bSupermum · 15/03/2015 15:17

90s not 80s. I played sports against them and my friends went there through 2002.

For prep schools, I think coed is fine. I like packwood for the midlands and northwest.

TalkinPeace · 15/03/2015 15:17

Jilly
If you'd had to stay where you grew up just imagine where would you have sent your kids to school?
Girls and Boys?

and FWIW NLCS is not available to anybody outside its travel distance.
Are the rest of us just second class?
actually don't answer that

JillyR2015 · 15/03/2015 15:20

Why is it implying people are second class if they don't go to the school which gets (often) the best A levels in the country? Nothing to stop people moving where I live if they want to. It's a free country and plenty of people do well at other schools.

TalkinPeace · 15/03/2015 15:30

Nothing to stop people moving where I live if they want to.
Ha Ha Jilly
Could you link me to the 4 bedroom house in range of NLCS for under £200,000 (so that those of us on mean let alone median incomes can live there)

Want2bSupermum · 15/03/2015 15:59

Talkin - plenty of people here in New Jersey will buy a small place in the best school district. Apline has a fab school district with an average house price of over $1million. Friends just purchased a 1 bed condo that's 1200sqft so their kids can attend the school. Yes space is tight but their thinking is that education is more important. Not the choice I have to make but plenty of people do downsize to afford an area with better schools.

TalkinPeace · 15/03/2015 16:03

Want2b
American school districts are a rather different issue than London catchments.
If you live on the wrong side of the Turnpike you are stuffed,
let alone if you live in the deepest depths of Montana (where house numbers run to 5 digits)
The SuperZip problem in the north eat US is an argument in favour of the UK system IMHO
Watching the girls get dropped off at Marymount was an eye opener last term Smile

Poisonwoodlife · 15/03/2015 16:58

Talkin if you were willing to bunk up there would be this

www.foxtons.co.uk/search?bedrooms_from=2&location_ids=290&price_to=200000&property_id=931057&search_form=map&search_type=SS&submit_type=search

There is also the little matter of £15,000 per annum fees......

Jilly There are a number of girls' London day schools in a ring around SPGS (geographically and in terms of results) NCLS, LEH, JAGS etc. whose results are regularly better than Eton and sometimes even Winchester, but apart from those seeing the angsty January mumsnet threads about which London girls' school offer to accept, who outside London has actually heard of these schools? Whereas brand awareness of Eton and Winchester as the OP is pointing out is far greater. And no offence but such brand loyalty as yours is rare, most of the London mother's mafia are preoccupied chattering about whether their results are going downhill / they are hothouses, they are not getting enough to Oxbridge, the schools are filling up with either bursary kids / the global rich (delete as appropriate)........

goinggetstough · 15/03/2015 17:03

"Want2be" I am not sure of the link you are making between army families and the middle of the road academic child! Service children have a normal distribution of ability.....

Want2bSupermum · 15/03/2015 17:25

Yeah I prefer the system here. I live in hoboken where the high school has a rating of 2 on the great schools website. DD's school has a rating of 3 yet I am very happy with the teaching. The low rating is a function of a few things, namely parental input, or lack of it. I went to the science museum yesterday morning and I had a dozen free passes so sent an email out to DD's class. Not one reply. I sent a text to my friend whose kid goes to the private school and all tickets were gone in half an hour.

IMO the private schools in town are lacking but do well because the parents are motivated. I am open to considering all girls boarding schools for DD when the time comes because it might be what is best for her.

Want2bSupermum · 15/03/2015 17:27

Going - the reason for saying that about Monmouth is that the fees are something like £500 a term for boarding at that school if parents are in the army. It isn't a very academic school IMO but not every child is academic. I think it is a good school though and one which I would consider looking at for my dc when the time comes.

Want2bSupermum · 15/03/2015 17:29

Army = armed forces. Sorry all my friends are army not the other 2!

Needmoresleep · 15/03/2015 17:32

I'm with Molio on this. We knew a very bright girl who for various reasons was seeing a child pyschologist. The pyschologist steered the parents strongly away from Wycombe suggesting it would be the wrong school for her.

If one type of schooling suited everyone, there would only be one type of school.

TalkinPeace · 15/03/2015 17:33

Hoboken is pretty darned cosmopolitan compared with much of the US.
Being 30 mins from Penn station and thus the midtown private schools is a bonus

Have a look at the school options in, say, Walton NY

goinggetstough · 15/03/2015 17:33

"Want2be" I guessed that was probably what you meant but you linked it academics. Sorry if I was being pedantic...

JillyR2015 · 15/03/2015 17:38

There are few schools in the country except Eton and NLCS which take the top 5 slots as frequently over the last 30 years. St paul's boys and girls obviously if often up there too.

The reason people don't go on about girls schools so much is over 80% of women choose to sacrifice on the altar of their husband's career so the 50% who join important jobs result in only 20% sticking it out because women seem to prefer short hours and washing nappies - more fool them. So we can't say the 80% of the cabinet who are female went to XYZ school because women in the cabinet are few and far between ditto most senior roles.

Abraid2 · 15/03/2015 17:39

Interestingly some doctors now believe that anorexia may actually have a physiological rather than psychological/emotional cause--at least in part. It might even be a kind of virus (so I gather from a doctor friend with a personal interest in the subject). eatingdisordersreview.com/nl/nl_edr_12_5_1.html

It hacks me off that people automatically mention pushy parents and too much pressure. I had an eating disorder and it was f-all to do with my parents and I certainly wasn't under academic pressure at school.

On another note, my Hellkats daughter was offered the chance of moving for sixth form and was adamant that she wanted to stay.

JillyR2015 · 15/03/2015 17:45

The people who think pressure at schools for very bright girls is too much usually are those whose daughters could not get in or could not hack it when there or whose daughter has some kind of problem not caused by the school. My children have always been very laid back (too much in my view at times). The schools go on about taking a break, not revising all the time, doing your hobbies and the UK has a much much bigger issue of people dying of over eating by the way diabetes and all the rest than the very very few who are mentally ill with anorexia.

Abraid2 · 15/03/2015 17:51

Actually, if you have anorexia you have quite a high chance of dying, if you are are not treated quickly and correctly.

This is why it makes me furious to read that people are still blaming parents for this awful illness. I hope my lovely friend whose much loved daughter has been struggling with anorexia for the last 18 months doesn't stumble across this thread.

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