Are GCSEs changing for current Year 9?

[nomorehollyoaks]

My DS is in Year 9 and about to choose his options. I understand he has been told that the way GCSE results will be assessed is changing. Two key themes that I have gathered from what he has told me are (a) that in future GCSE results will be aggregated to produce a points score; and (b) that the results for a student's best 8 GCSEs will be particularly key. We have an options meeting at the school coming up soon, but in advance of that I'd be grateful for any information about how the system will work. In particular, is it correct that the best 8 GCSE results will be particularly key in some way? And if there is going to be some kind of new points system, how will that work?

TIA

I was the first year of GCSEs, and I recall the teachers having no real frame of reference to work from. It was appalling. My severely dyslexic DS is in Year 9 - he will struggle to get a C in English, it will be nigh on impossible to hit the new 'good' grades if SPAG makes up a higher amount of marks. I feel so sorry for him being a guinea pig too.

A lot actually depends on what happens in May. The current government are still um-ing and ah-ing over the IGCSE. (Annoying as it means I can't tell my year 9s what they'll be studying next year!)
I don't understand why the changes to GCSE and A level are being phased in as it's making a mockery over the apparent new purpose of AS while some subjects are still doing it the old way. I'm just glad I'm not a head of department or in charge of time tabling!

nomorehollyoaks

It might be worth your son looking at IB instead of A Levels and working back from there

"Universities, colleges, employers etc will NOT use Progress 8 - they are a school league table measure the same as % 5 A*-C grades is a league table measure."

Actually, I'm not sure that I would want to be so emphatic on this. Absolutely, this is a league table measure for a school, not an individual, but I could see in 5 years or so 6th form and college requirements being put in terms of say 50 points on Best 8 GCSEs, and again for UCAS purposes, I suspect that this will become an easier method of comparing groups of candidates.

I've already seen at least one independent school change so that their lower ability sets only take 8 GCSEs. And when we're taking lower ability we're still looking at a school with around 75%+ A/A at GCSE, and 100% A-C.

But why would they ladymuck? GCSEs attract points now - universities don't ask for a particular points score. There is no reason for universities to change how and who they offer to. They will continue to offer based on level 3 quals, with the additional requirement of Maths and English at grade 5 or higher, and maybe 3 others at grade 5 or higher, as opposed to exactly the same but using grade C as the minimum requirement.

The new gcse is going to be a disaster.

I'm supposed to start teaching it in September, so far the only thing that has been officially published is sample exams (which have now been repealed as they aren't 'an accurate representation') and the new grades in numbers.

As a teacher I can carry on teaching the maths curriculum but I also need to know what the exams will look like and how high a level to go to.

English teachers have it worse I think.

Because fundamentally many people find converting grades to points more difficult, but when the grades are already numerical it will be more tempting to have it as a single measure, especially if "8" GCSEs becomes a standard measure. Looking at 6th form entry requirements, there is a fair amount of inconsistency about how GCSEs are converted to points by different schools, together with what each 6th form requires. And as an employer, it will be easier to compare candidates with a single number.

I'm not saying that it will definitely happen - I just don't think that one can be quite so emphatic that NO 6th form, university or employer will ever use this measure at any point in the future. Personally I can see some merit in using it, and I know it has already been mentioned in discussions around 6th form admissions at my local comp.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/314294/Progress_8_measure_in_2016.pdf

This is the DFE explanation.

Actually, my DS1's current sixth form used a points system for his top 8 GSCEs (including maths and either English lan or lit) as the basis of his offer. They gave an A 4 points down to 1 point for a C. These new measures will give 8 points to an A down to one for a G, and I guess 9 to 1 points for the new GSCE grades.

So Attainment 8 may well become a measure used as the basis for 6th form offers at least.

But progress 8 is a SCHOOL measure, not a student measure. Ebacc similarly. That school says all students will leave with progress 8, ebacc etc information implying they will get official Certificates in all of these - they won't any more than they get an official certificate saying they got the ebacc or 5 Ato C grades now. Of course looking at the gcse certificate it'll be easy enough to work out but I think the school is being a bit disingenuous saying the kids will be measures on P8.

8 gcses for an able kid does seem low, but 11 or more is too many. Oxford expect 8.5 A or A* grades not 10.5 btw.

The 10.5 comes from the average number of A grades that students getting an interview for medicine at Oxford had. The interview shortlist was drawn up looking at BMAT scores, number of A grades and proportion of A grades. Grades were looked at in context of the school applied from. So getting 9 A from a school were everyone only sits 9 is better than 10 from a school where most sit 12. Crucially though, they went back through the applications and offered interviews to about 40 applicants who didn't make the shortlists on grade alone.

I suspect the problem in your school is that they are the highest performing comp because they've been playing the numbers game for years, rather than doing what's best for pupils. I'm not sure if there's much reason for any of their changes and I don't know if many schools will do the same, I suspect not. However that probably comes at the price of not being able to claim they are the best comp in the country.

But using attainment 8 progress 8 or whatever as a measure is no different from saying kids need x number of GCSEs grades y to z is it. They're just different ways of measuring the same thing ie attainment at GCSE level.

Think about A levels and the UCAS tariff - some universities make offers based on grades, others on total tariff, others on tariff from a select number of qualifications. But they're all essentially measuring A level grades.

Dd is year 9 but those subjects that would change for her year are those her school takes as igcse. I assume these will continue to be marked as a* to u , but can anyone confirm ?

I can confirm that your dd will be unaffected. But I did end up asking that very question myself.

Dropping the popular, long-standing all-Y10 Biz Comm GCSE (their Y10 IT, effectively). It will still be available as a Y11 option. Dropping Y10 GCSE Statistics for the top Maths group.

Is this is the school I think it is (in a former fire station?)? I'm glad they are dropping both of these since neither are particularly respected. They picked stats as the soft and "safe" option for their top maths group rather than going for a more respected but harder further maths option.

As for dropping down from 11 to 8/9: other schools will be doing the same and I really very much doubt that places like Oxford were ever really counting Business and Communication Studies or Stats anyhow.

For all the rest I share their frustrations but I really think they are doing the right thing, given that Maths and English are becoming much harder.

Yes, but those who wanted to do Maths at AS/A2 would have been better prepared by taking one of the other extension maths options, rather than stats. (Ask your SLT and they basically admit that they took the easier extension option to get better grades.) Also, better to get an A* at the end of y11 than go in for maths early and get an A at the end of y10.

The only reason for the top set to take statistics is to look good on the league table. Most other schools would do as uilen has said and have the top set do FSMQ or Further Maths GCSE to prepare them for Alevel. The statistics GCSE isn't really comparable.

surely the only reason the school is changing is to game the numbers for the school, not in any interest of the children. The school only get marked in 8 subjects, so only offer 8. The school get double weighting in maths and English, so increase teaching time.
Neither of those changes benefits any pupils.

Yes, the preferred option is FM or FSMQ at the end of Y11. This is what many schools (state or private) with strong top sets in maths do. However, this will likely change with the new maths GCSE, which will contain material from FM/FSMQ.

I don't think the school is just gaming the numbers: it is anticipated that more teaching time will be needed for the new maths and english and they need to make space for it somehow. If the new maths and english indeed turn out to be significantly harder, and the effective passing grade is lifted to what is now a B in other subjects, then getting 8 GCSEs with good grades will be better for the pupils than getting 10 GCSEs with lower grades.

Fifteen to twenty ago, 9 academic GCSE subjects was perfectly normal for high achievers. It may become normal again with the changes but even if it doesn't I don't believe that universities can discriminate against pupils with "only" 9 academic GCSEs at top grades, if their schools only allowed them to take 9. This school won't be the only one that follows this strategy.