How robust is the 'prepping' for e.g Eton, Harrow, Winchester at your prep?

[Preppedup]

NC but regular poster. Can you please share how your child's prep school prepares children for pretests into schools like Eton, Harrow. At our prep the kids have one interview with the HM the day before the actual pretest for these schools and that's about it. Just regular lessons leading up to that. I'm wondering wether it's me being over expectant or are we clearly missing a trick at our school.

You're getting the same as my DS got from his prep for Eton.

In theory you can't prepare for the computer test and our prep headmaster didn't want to send boys into interviews looking coached. He just wanted the boys to have some idea of what to expect.

Did your DSes prep do any non verbal/verbal reasoning tests during the last 2 yrs at his school at all? I'm trying to understand partly why ours don't seem to do that well at pretests whilst the prep a few miles away send loads to very selective Indies.

Some Preps have signed up to various on line programmes and students do regular tests in the run up to the pre-tests (sometimes 1-2 years beforehand).

There seems to be a movement away from knowledge being valued as a component of CE etc and a drive to gauging 'natural ability' and this being a far better marker of potential and suitability for an academic secondary.

Preppedup, no none of that.

My DS's prep was very good at steering boys (their parents) away from the super selectives if the headmster really did not think they were up to it. I suspect the super selectives took his reports very seriously because he had a good "track record" of only presenting suitable candidates.

Grovel thank you for being so candid. I just always felt other preps were doing much more.

Naturalhistory that's interesting! Partly because I know they say in theory these tests can't be prepped for but these tests are similar to the grammar school tests, reasoning based (although a lot harder) and you can sure prep for those. The more you do the better and faster you get.

But back to the main question, I'm really curious to know wether most preps are the same as ours and Grovel's.

There was no 'extra' prepping at DSs school either, and they regularly got boys into these schools (bearing in mind that not many actually applied to go).

In any case, certainly at Eton, even getting the highest score in the computer test is no guarantee of being offered a place.

It really is very hard to tell what works - if anything.

I've seen yr 6 boys arrive at prep school weeks before their pre-test(s) and succeed. While of course boys who had been at the same prep forever might not.

The senior school, I assume, wants boys who - if they pass the pre-test - will be properly prepared both academically (CE/Schol) and practically (habits and ethos) for senior school life. So, it may be OP that the other prep gets boys in because of its post-pre-test reliability?

It's complicated, but not, iyswim. Perhaps the boys are cleverer at School A but aren't encouraged to speak up confidently? Or don't put huge amounts of effort into extra-curricular stuff? Perhaps the boys at School B are demonstrably happy, active boarders who will take the senior school in their stride?

And of course every senior school is looking for slightly different things.

Zero - You make some very good points. To put things further into context, DS's prep (which goes up to 13yrs) is flanked by a couple of other preps that only go up to yr 6, all these preps including ds's are non selective at entry. The neighbouring preps have a record of consistently sending large numbers to the most selective academic indies. Our prep seems to hardly ever manage to send children to these schools (not for want of trying!). Our prep is a traditional prep, with fantastic extra curricula's etc, the neighbouring preps have very limited grounds and facilities for extra curricular's though do manage a decent few.

A few frustrated parents in the past have removed their dc in yr 4 once they decided to go for the very academic indies to these other preps. lo and behold by yr 6 we start hearing the news that these kids have now got multiple offers to the top schools in the country. What's different ? same child just different school. Some of these children have gone for the top public schools and and sat pretests in yr 6, aced it and then transferred back to our prep for 13+. Get the picture ? we ourselves have toyed with the idea of doing this but feel it will be too disruptive for ds who has already transferred from another prep that went though to A'levels as we wanted him to try for different senior schools at 13. DS is now in yr 6, no one in current yr 7 has received any offers following pretests to the aforementioned.

You say "some" transfer to your prep after pre-testing. Where do the rest go? It seems an odd set up, to attend an 11+ school in preparation for 13+ entry to seniors. Are the "large numbers" of successful boys going on to 11+ schools?

no one in current yr 7 has received any offers following pretests to the aforementioned

Hmm... Does your traditional prep have a tradition of sending boys to the particular seniors you mentions in your OP? Is this a sudden falling off? Or have some parents decided to try for these schools against prep school advice?

Our prep also did little preparation, some parents got very twitchy about this and of course if their DC's didn't get offered a place then blamed the school.

What i meant was in our prep, some move to the neighbouring prep (that goes up tp yr 6) in order to get through the pretest stage, they then after yr 6 transfer back to our prep for yrs 7 and 8. i agree it is a very odd route to entering super selective senior schools but its worked for some.

Our prep has a long tradition of sending boys to these schools but numbers in the last 5 yrs have steadily dropped. This yr will be the first in over a decade that none are going to any of these schools. All the preps attract dc from the same neighbourhoods. All the boys applied with the full consent of school.

The headteacher's reference is all important for these schools and therefore there may be a relative value placed on this depending on the headteacher?

Our DC are at one of the school mentioned and in the school calendar I notice from time to time that there is mention of a dinner for prep school HTs - so clearly prep school are meeting with the public school heads and therefore have every opportunity to be fully up to speed with what the school is looking for. The HT of our school is very in favour of transparency!

OP Your stated dilemma makes no sense to me.

Why would highly sought after senior schools be falling over themselves to make pre-test offers to boys at schools which only go up to 11+ - knowing that those boys would have to move to an as yet unknown other school to prepare for CE?

Boys passing their pre-test at St A. N. Other and then going on to a proven prep for the final two years is probably fairly common - but you're saying the proven prep can't get its own boys through pre-test?

Are you sure that all boys at your prep are actually passing CE at the required level and going on to their allotted schools?

(In which case you must also be saying that the teaching there is poor from year 4 through to year 6 but perfectly adequate thereafter.)

(All this long ramble is me trying to work out whether or not checking diary entries for meetings with senior school heads would help. One would take it for granted that there should be regular and helpful communication between prep and senior schools but I can see no reason why the senior schools would have such a relationship with schools that only go up to 11+.)

Needs someone cleverer than me to disentangle this!

OP admissions for the three schools you mention are very competitive, and becoming increasingly so, especially Harrow and Eton, Win Coll, restricts the number of applicants for each place, I know Eton certainly doesn't, I'm not sure about Harrow.
IME many small preps who used to have a good reputation for getting boys into big name schools are increasingly struggling and there are bigger 13+ preps who still seems to be getting reasonable numbers in every year. I do wonder if these small preps haven't yet woken up to the fact that many children are very well prepared now. The 11+ prep you talk about perhaps puts a lot of effort into preparing it's pupils probably from the beginning of yr 5 and they peak at exactly the right moment for the pre tests for Eton etc. Without a doubt with more very bright children coming from abroad who've I'm sure have been very well prepped then the competition for places is not just more in terms of numbers but also stronger in terms of academic ability.
It's very difficult as I said above my DS did little preparation, and was offered places at SPS and Winchester we wanted them to want the unprepped child not the extensively coached one, but I can fully understand you concerns.

zero surely the schools don't care or discriminate according to what school your DC us currently at. They offer you a place for yr 9 how you fill in the intervening 2 yrs is your problem not the schools.

A topic the interests me too, esp as Eton entrance seems (at our school and I gather at a couple of nearby London preps) seems a bit hard to predict.

My boys' prep only manages a circa 50-60% strike rate at eton, whilst a nearby one which is generally considered a (small) notch below academically I think does better, but perhaps the latter being the biggest sender in London, I believe, with a majority of boys going to boarding, whilst quite a lot of boys at our shop with Eton offers in the end turn them down to go to the associates big school has something to do with it.

Our prep gives the boys 2 VR and 2 NVR papers to do over weekends as prep for both Eton and westminster and spends vast amount of time telling the boys and parents not to do anything else. Plus a practice interview with the head. It appears that things are just the same at the other prep I mentioned but of course the latter's job is to get boys into big schools where ours is to shepherd them to the ties one, so presumably lots of efforts goes into contact with registrars, detailed reference letters etx

I know that if I ran a prep I would want to give the boys a bit of a heads up at least as to the shape and format of the tests which in itself would be helpful and had always assumed that the big country prep senders (ludgrove etc) did that, but perhaps not

Wuss life to know what online options for practice there were!

I think HG has nailed it on the head. This is what I think is happening. We are a small prep. neighbouring prep I believe, really prepares their children for the very selective indies which start from yr 7, this of course co insides with the same yr when the pretests are taking place. So some parents take advantage of that. We don't seem to have a problem with CE which most pass once they've got a conditional offer. HM also seems to bury his head in the sand about the fact that a lot of dc that leave by yr 4 are going across to the other preps in order to gain entry into the selective indies for yr 7. I guess there's not a lot one can do. I was just curious what other preps do that's enabling their dc to pass whilst ours dwindles.

The prep my DC attended seemed to do a good job at this (though I had no prior knowledge or experience of the system beforehand).

The children (mostly) got into the schools of their parents choosing.

DS applied to a highly selective public school and in hindsight didn't do that much prep.

The scholarship exams on the other hand almost killed us all...

Large prep which sends loads to Eton, Winchester, quite a few to Harrow over a number of years. They do some computer familiarisation for boys taking computer tests, one or two practice interviews but emphasise that the best preparation is sustained effort over the years from the DCs and involvement in school activities. That would be different if they were preparing for very selective independent day schools with more eleven plus type exams. I honestly don't think that loads of VR / NVR work makes any difference as long as the English and Maths teaching is up to scratch.

Just to add that I do think the type of prep school makes a major difference to preparation for the more difficult 13+ scholarship exams for all but the most exceptional DC.