Cant get DC into a faith school

[angelfireabbey]

I know this is possibly the wrong place because it seems the whole of MN is atheist or totally secular. However, there is a lot of discussion by MNers here about getting intofaith schools ( often without any faith because they are good schools).

I am a little bit fed up with it. I take my faith seriously. I take my DC to church and we believe. I wanted my DC to have a faith education. There are only two faith schools where I live. They are oversubscribed by parents who seem to have suddenly aquired a need to attend church to get a vicars signiture.

I had my pastors signiture but we didnt get a place. So instead my DC is stuck in a state school where the teachers and other children laugh and say that they have " imaginary friends" ( or simply they are nutters!) and that they believe in fairly stories etc. Sound familiar MN parents? ( I bet you wouldnt say it if someone were of say Jewish or Muslim faith though would you?). It is offensive you know.

They have an atheist teacher who clearly knows next to nothing about Christianity.

I would settle for any faith school although there are no others ( of any faith ) within 40 miles of us.

So how do I get into one? I have asked my church community. I know they are doing their best and we are praying hard but I am sure some savvy non religious types must know more here. So I am asking.
I see thread on thread where parents are scamming the system.So how does a genuine person get in?

Thanks.

Don't think she does

We had a case locally where an infant school (freehold owned by the diocese) closed. It was vacant for a while, then leased for use as a private day nursery. The diocese decided to sell, but the nursery owners didn't want to buy, and announced closure. Brouhaha ensued. Council wanted to use the building for something childrens services related, and it turns out that they had an interest in the sale, such that any profit went to them and not the diocese (not sure what profit means in this case - measured from when?). There ended up being a management buy out of the nursery, including the freehold of the building. But it was all a bit messy.

I thought I had made myself quite clear Hakluyt. I have heard RE teachers (in more than one instance that is) use the term "nutter" (not nutcase) to describe individuals who subscribe to a faith (usually Christian, its not a term used for other religious particiants in my experience).

I can offer more instances (I hope this does not break any guidelines. I can see that some posters have had their comments deleted previously. I do not know what they said). This is in addition to the usual ones thrown around about believing in faries etc.

a) God does not exist and so anyone who believes is stupid.
b) Jesus never existed. Its a made up story created from lots of different characters in the Bible
c) Believing in Jesus is like believing in imaginary friends. Its used by people who cannot cope in life.
d) The Virgin Mary wasnt. She was pregnant because she had sex outside marriage probably with a Roman soldier and made the story up as a cover.
e) When Jesus was crucified they gave the people the choice of saving him who was the Son of God or Barabbas. The Jews chose Barabbas. Barabbas actually means the "Son of the Father", so the jews may have chosen correctly
f) God does not exist man created him (which of course is Marx).
g) Christianity is responsible for all the wars in the world historically and now.

I can give of many more concerning the ideas of some Christians in terms of their moral code (gays, abortion, marriage , divorce etc). All of which I have heard in RE lessons in school in my 22 years, though not all in the same school.

Whilst you may not find them offensive, a Christian may well not agree. More than that, some of the ideas might be acceptable in a theological course as points of debate, but not in school.

I am sorry if I was not quick enough responding but I have a life to get on with. I see the OP has not come back.

To be fair, the op said she wasn't coming back pages ago after she said she had got what she needed from the thread.

Thank you wildthings, I hadn't seen that.

"Whilst you may not find them offensive, a Christian may well not agree. More than that, some of the ideas might be acceptable in a theological course as points of debate, but not in school."

Really? With the notable exception of calling anyone a "nutter" or "stupid", they all seem like perfectly legitimate points of debate- along the "some people think" principle. Do you think that RE lessons in school should not talk about different viewpoints?

Oh, and Christians seem to have a real problem with "imaginary friend" so I would suggest an RE teacher avoided that one too. But Christianity can't be expected to be put on a pedestal. Teenagers are interested in ideas and should be encouraged to explore their understanding and beliefs about everything!

What a coincidence that both you and the OP say you have experience of RE teachers insulting people who believe in God using almost exactly the same word!

What are the chances, eh?

I don't have a problem with anyone saying any of those things (apart from the last one which is factually inaccurate and displays a woeful lack of historical knowledge) so long as they are not presented as absolute truth but opinion. I do have a problem with rudeness and meanness of spirit but that can be conveyed as easily (better) with a curl of the lip as with trite sub-dawkins soundbites. I have never heard of RE teachers being confrontation or dismissive of the religious views of others, whether those others are represented in the class or not. Perhaps my kids have been very lucky but actually, I think not, I think their experience is fairly standard. RE teachers know their stuff, they know how to teach it, and they - like anyone - certainly don't go looking for a hard life.

The other religions seem to be tiptoed around a bit more I think.

However in the RE lessons I have been part of most of the teachers have been great and always listened to the students in a sensible and encouraging way.

The other religions seem to be tiptoed around a bit more I think

What other religions? Tiptoed round by whom?

Evidence?

Conspiracy theories again?

I suppose if I also said that like the OP I too live in an areawhere faith schools are generally few and far between that would add grist to the mill too would it? But before you do that, lets not forget that several other posters (rabbitofnegativeuphoria being one of them I recall without going backthrough) have said they also live in areas without faith schools.

It might just be a coincidence. It may well be that in the course of my work I have had more opportunity to hear of such things than you have. It may also be that I take notice when I hear them because it is part of my job sometimes. It may also be ..... many things.

Just come off it. You can see many things that are not there when you want to look for them. I could find it suspicious that Hakluyt makes a comment and within half an hour three other posters have agreed with her - the same ones each time. All having the same thing to say. All of them there at the same time? Has no one anything better to do?

Wuzzup In my Anglican Sunday School (age 10+) in the 70s we debated quite a few of those points and more, the place of faith in the space age etc. obviously nobody was called stupid or a nutter because that has no place in any sort of school does it? It wasn't in some liberal London suburb either, it was a Northern village.

Our Anglican vicar does not believe in the afterlife, facilitates his Parisioners in reaching their own beliefs but for him Heaven is about creating Gods Kingdom on earth through living Jesus's teaching. He believes churches are places in which to find your own spirituality within the teachings of Jesus and that aside from those teachings much of the bible is indeed a fairy story written to convey the message, not to be taken literally. I am sure he leads the teen Sunday School in a similar way to the way he leads adult groups, encouraging people to think and question. A few of the old guard struggle a bit but most members of the congregation enjoy the spiritual debate he encourages. There are plural ideas even within Christianity, even OP acknowledged that in highlighting her DD may take a different path with her own Christian beliefs.

My DD has studied both the Religion and Ethics GCSE, St Marks Gospel plus an ethics module, and the Philosophy of Religion A level. Does God exist is a common question certainly at A level. Her A level group was a complete mixture of those with faith and none and the debate was always lively (though the teachers would not tolerate any disrespect just as with any other subject).

So I wonder do people like OP expect the curriculum to be delivered differently in faith schools because as has been highlighted by a few extreme fundamentalist schools failing to deliver the full curriculum they are not doing their students any favours if they do not equip them to appreciate all points of view on matters of faith and ethics.

Wuzzup- if you have time,could you explain why you think secondary school children should not discuss the points you made in your post? Remembering that I agree with you about using words like "nutter" and "stupid" are wrong?

I wonder if the Teacher who was originally discussed would have made such disparaging remarks about an imaginary friend etc to a student who followed a different religion.

I haven't any evidence but I haven't heard anyone from a different religion posting a similar story of a teacher making derogatory comments about their religion.

to be fair though the RE teachers i have encountered have always been excellent and I agree that the syllabus is set up to explore and ask questions as the other posters have outlined.

tobeabat - when I was making those comments I was not discussing the current agenda. My dislike of a secularist agenda in my comments earlier and the comments I have made here are not at odds. I have other issues with PHSM /RE agendas which I did not wish to go into. In fact if I did, I would probably get banned for saying some very un PC things. But they are things I do not want my DC to be brainwashed with in school. These things are not to do with religion, they are more social issues.

Yes, I do teach but I would still argue I have massive gaps in my schooling and education. You may not consider that to be the case but I do. I know where the big holes are. You may not see them. I know they are there. I will not bore you with why my education has been lacking and why it has taken me almost 40 years to begin to fill in the gaps. Its not relevant.

You may well see me as an educated person if I were to list my background and qualifications, however, I know that is not the case. I do not enjoy having debates in the way that some here seem to want. I generally prefer to use MN as a gossip group and information group. A social place, not a philosophical debating society or the Oxford Union. (I can see often that there are some posters here who are hungry for a debate or discussion or argument I do not want to have at an academic level or any other).

I do not have the time to engage in these debates. I do not have the time or inclination to go around chasing the references and getting the "evidence" to satisfy other posters. I dont want to bother. If I wanted to bother I would go away and write a book and get paid lots of money for being controversial and having the academic debate. That way I would be less likely to find myself open to the kinds of abusive comments sometimes made in forums like this - ones like suggesting I am a "wind up" for example. I try to avoid these debates because I may well "wind" you up simply by not agreeing with you. In an academic forum it would not be an issue because we would all abide by the rules. Here it is an issue.

I read some of the comments made by the OP and I had some sympathy toward what she said, so I commented. I also had some similar experience. I did not expect to still be having to engage this and other issues several pages later.

Wazup- I would love to know why you think children should not discuss matters of faith in school on a side note- I'd quite like to know what sort of things you thing children are brainwashed into thinking at state schools too

Hakluyt.

Since I am here.... ( although I may well have togo at a moments notice) ....

My primary objection would be that in fact none of those issues are on any SACRE or GCSE specification I am familiar with. You could, if you wanted to spread things out, get to them but you would be stretching what is actually on the specification somewhat. Neither are they really on the A level specification - again you have to stretch to get there.

Secondly, I think you are forgetting that this is dealing with children. Not necessarily very able children who are being stretched at A level but "5C" quite often. Many such children will not have any grasp of any religious perspective from home. Often they will confuse the different religions they are taught at school. Getting them to understand some simple and basic "facts" about different beliefs is actually an achievement quite often.
These children though will quickly pick up things they see on TV or those words they hear uttered by their teachers. They may not understand the context. They often do not hear "some people believe ... or do not agree ...." or whatever pre cursor might be used. In fact though often such things are not explained well by the teacher anyway. Many keen teachers want to get into the debate without explaining what they are saying. It often leads to problems.

Thirdly, with reference to all the comments I listed above, I have watched (even occasionally been part of) arguments amongst intelligent adults who do have a clear grasp of the debate involved which have ended in very bitter exchanges.

Fourthly, I know many of those listed above by me would not be very well received by believers in Christian congregations. Many may well be offended. When I really want to wind people up get them to argue I usually start with the nativity stories and question their authenticity (best done near Christmas) and follow that up with questioning the resurrection stories at Easter. I once cleared half my theology class doing that - and they were all intelligent studious young people.

Fifthly, NONE of the comments I recorded are "fact" or even "truth" Most of them have been more radical ideas in theology which from time to time get debated in academic circles. They are not comments for secondary school children. Where religious belief is concerned schools should be aiming to ensure children understand what people believe, not what they argue about in academic circles - and they have been (and still are) devise in modern theology when they are brought up.

Hope that clears the air.

Wazup- I would love to know why you think children should not discuss matters of faith in school on a side note- I'd quite like to know what sort of things you thing children are brainwashed into thinking at state schools too

With respect, I will not answer that question.

You don't have to engage with anything! You are choosing to

Now I am choosing not to. I will not debate this further.

What has RE in schools go to do with the GCSE curriculum.
THe GCSE is not and never has been compulsory.
For that matter it is possible and common to opt out of RE

and YesYesYes to tiptoeing around other faiths.
The lads on the plane were very very badly behaved, but nobody said anything aloud, because criticising their faith is invites charges of racism.