How do you know if private school is worth the money?

[AmberDrop]

I know it's very hard to measure the effect of private education versus state as you cannot tell what direction a child might have gone in if they had remained in a state school but.....how can you tell if the investment is having any affect (Ie if your Dc is responding to the experience or coasting through it and not enjoying it and would be just as happy/engaged/capable of fulfilling potential at state school)?

DS (9) is not enjoying his school but then I'm not sure that's unusual, regardless of whether it's private or state. However, he seems to be treading water and we're just at the point of wondering if we should take him out as he doesn't seem any further ahead (in terms of academia or enthusiasm) than 2years ago. If anything, he's actually a bit lazy and easily defeated in his approach to the whole thing.

As someone who was very happily state school educated, I am failing to see how the £18k it's costing is being well spent. But maybe I am missing something?

[LePetitMarseillais]

Or interesting work and the best of lives.I know several on shit pay who hate their jobs which not only aren't that secure these days but sound extremely dull.All(male and female)are on less than my state educated dh,hate their jobs more and have less job security.

My state educated DS has the brains,ability and perseverance to do whatever he wants.Law won't be factoring that high on my recommendation list.

[Greengrow]

Each to their own. Mine is a wonderful life and I am very happy. I have done 30 years of it and would adore to do 30 more.

[LePetitMarseillais]

Anybody,state or privately educated doing a huge variety of jobs could have written that last post.

[Greengrow]

Of course. I am just saying that on the whole many lawyers earn more than most people. The average pay int he UK is £25k. Also if you have a good education you are more likely to get the higher paid than the lower paid legal jobs so there is definitely a connection between a good education and higher pay in many of the professions.

However 50% of Oxbridge entrants come from the 94% of children at state schools so a good few of them do well in well paid enjoyable professions.

Not only do I enjoy my job but my daughters (lawyers too) enjoy theirs which is lovely. As indeed we might if we were all surgeons or park keepers or whatever. Some people are miserable whatever they do but that's a separate topic.

[EldonAve]

18K is v expensive - even in London most are cheaper than this for 9 year olds

On your other thread you say you just had your first baby at 43?

[SugarPlumTree]

Good grief, there many things I'd quite like to do and a Lawyer is way way down the list at number not in a million years thank you as I would find it immensely boring ! But that is the good thing about life, we are all so different.

I agree that the key to this is happiness and it depends on your state alternatives. We have the three tier system so from year 5 they are setted for Maths and English so teacher is teaching the same ability in each class. Plus specialist teachers for French, IT, music etc.

Reading MN you realise the vast regional differences and how difficult is is to make generalisations about private v state. Someone mentioned private as a reflection of your social circle. Here it has been generally that private was the option for children who failed the Grammar, though that is changing a bit. In other places the alternative will be a failing state school so completely different.

[Snapespotions]

Around here, the only people who seem to use the private primaries are the ones who don't get a place at one of the two excellent state schools. There are lots of transfers in to the state schools as and when places become available. I'm not aware of any moving the other way.

OP, I think you have to be guided by your instincts. If you don't think your ds is especially benefitting from the investment, then he probably isn't. Might be worth talking to the school about your concerns to see what they could do.

[rabbitstew]

(Rabbitstew has the sneaking suspicion that Greengrow wouldn't find her work very interesting if it didn't earn her a lot of money. On a lower income, she might even admit to the very same work being extremely boring from time to time and not worth the effort put into it... But then she earns a lot of money because her clients have more interesting things to be getting on with, so are willing to pay her to deal with the bits they find too boring ).

Love this: www.businessinsider.com/why-lawyers-are-unhappy-at-work-2013-8

[Greengrow]

I genuinely don't think that is so. My parents advised us to pick careers we would enjoy most of all. The money comes second.
The reasons I like it are
a - variety
b - very intellectually difficult - it is like being paid a fortune to solve crossword puzzles
c - interesting - one minute I'm someone's business adviser and another I'm at the high court or whatever
d- there have been so many facets to it - I have written 30 books, I give lots of talks, most of my time is advising a huge variety of clients lal over the planet, I've got to places for work some jobs don't take you to like Iran, Lagos etc
e - as I work for myself it's very flexible in how and where I work. I decide everything. No one tells me what to do. I keep all the money
f - I also have a small publishing business too.

I don't think all the clients pass me dull stuff. Anyway as we say some people like their work whatever they earn and others don't.

It certainly comforts the poor to think the rich are miserable and awful but that is rarely so. In fact happiness relates to brain chemicals and unhappiness crosses all income levels.

[Corestrategy]

I think Greengrow's job sounds amazing but obviously, not everyone would think so. I love my job too (and I went to a private secondary). However, I haven't always loved it. I don't know if my private schooling has any bearing on my qualifications or not but it did teach me to aim high, to have a career and to be self sufficient. Nearly all of my school friends are in good careers. Some have married well and have chosen full time motherhood over their careers but at least they have had the option to choose. None are socially disadvantaged.

[skylark2]

Also thinking 18k is a heck of a price for school fees for a 9 year old.

Is it possible that he's unsettled in general because he has a new baby sibling? I'd think that was far more likely to be an issue right now than private/state.

[MrsGhoulofGhostbourne]

I had a career that was stimulating and well paid - just happened to be in the right place at the right time. Given that we have no idea what kid of world our DC will face, I want them to be able to seize opportunities, and be in the right place at the right time.
So they have had a fab education in one of the schools mentioned, where they have had the best teaching, and a lively and engaged year group.
Up them what they do with it.
From our perspective - money well spent, whatever they choose.

[TheWordFactory]

The unpalatable fact is that the privately educated take up a disproportionate number of places at the most selective universities and later, positions in areas including board level corporate, law, medicine, politics, high level civil service, finance, media, publishing, academia, science, fashion , technology, engineering, arts...

People are defensive about it, but that doesn't make it untrue.

It would be interesting to know how much impact the school sector had on this. How much impact wealth had on this. How much impact where a person was brought up had on this. Etc etc

Probably a hell of a slippery mixture.

[MrsGhoulofGhostbourne]

WordFactory
Indeed!
have no idea how our DC will 'turn out'...
But whatever they do, what will have been the impact of:
Nutrition
Loving parents/grandparents/older step-siblings
Warm safe home
Ski hols
Beach hols
Camping Hols
Scouts
Football Club
Breastfeeding
Living in 21 century (as opposed to eg 13th)
Living in UK (as opposed to eg Somalia)
Books, lots of them
Computer games - aaargh...
No telling.
So... school is the most appropriate we can find for them - but who is to say it has the most, or least influence on 'outcome'

[Bonsoir]

I think private primary school is worth every euro! As others have said, specialist teachers in primary school make a massive difference to the quality of education and, in our case, fees go mainly on specialist teachers as, in France, class teacher salaries are paid by the state, even in private schools. Languages and music are hugely different when taught by specialists.

[TheWordFactory]

mrsghoul when I look at my DC's school mates I see their advantages in life before we even get to their schooling!

I suspect hard cash is the greatest determinant on a child's outcome as everything from good nutrition to an internship costs an arm and a leg in the UK!

[rabbitstew]

Well defended, Greengrow. You have obviously carved a niche out for yourself that suits you well.

It would be interesting to know what proportion of the people in high positions in politics, law, medicine, publishing, journalism, the civil service, academia, science, fashion, technology, engineering, arts, etc, are the children of parents who pursued similar careers, or careers working at a similar level... It seems to the casual observer that people in these careers frequently come from a long line of people who followed such careers. That would seem to me to be far more influential than the school a person went to, or even their level of wealth.

[MrsGhoulofGhostbourne]

Rabbitstew - indeed!
When I said to DH recently that I quite fancied a career as tube driver ( having seen ads and like the look of the salary and job conditions) he gave a hollow laugh and said, 'no chance - gets passed from father to son..' (note: son, not daughter...)

[Greengrow]

Yes, it's fascinating. An awful lot of children choose the profession of a parent. You could sell that's very dull perhaps. It will always have been so - the baker's son became a baker although most of my family were doctors not lawyers by the way and my late mother was a teacher and of course there are legions of daughters of housewives who not surprisingly become housewives particularly in some foreign cultures in the UK.

I see it all the time. If you read profiles of even famous people so often if the father was a journalist the child is or TV person - the Snows?, if the mother was a doctor the daughter often is. Yet it is not always planned. My girls went to university read subjects not related to law and saying they did not want to be lawyers and I had no input into their decision to do law after university. I was pleased as I love it and it gives us lots in common in career terms but I was certainly not consulted nor did I push for it.

As for the question of what influences outcomes if we are just talking about careers (rather than what makes children healthy or emotionally stable or happy) I obviously think academic private schools help if the child is reasonably bright. We had a careers' leaflet about a career event at school from my teenagers' school this week. We were joking that their brother's current profession is not represented (he is a postman at the moment) but it might be a joke but it's true. The leaflet mentions there will be professionals from law, medicine, architecture etc on the day. Every single one of them is a difficult to enter profession. No other careers (like postman) are being presented to them as options although hopefully all the children are bright enough to go on line and see that alternative careers like cleaner, care home worker, call centre worker may well be viable choices for them too if that is what they are after.

[TheWordFactory]

It would be interesting to know that rabbit.

I suspect a lot if people follow in the footsteps of family members and friends because they see these jobs as perfectly doable and don't fall for all the urban myths!

The one about everyone who is rich and successful being unhappy is a classic!

[TheWordFactory]

Also lots of these jobs require extremely good qualifications and financial support for a long time- self fulfilling prophesy!

[Greengrow]

Yes and my older 3 graduated without student debt as I chose to ensure that was so although to be fair in law if you are good then there are paid internships unlike in the media and also your law school fees are paid and an allowance so it is actually better than many many professions in terms of helping those who are worse off for those who are the very best and find a firm to sponsor them.

in fact in terms of happiness those who cannot control their lives have most mental illness. All that rubbish that the managing director of the company has the hardest time because of stress is just so not proven by statistics. It is the shop floor worker, the zero hours contractor, the man or woman at the bottom with low pay, no power, no money, no control who has the worst mental health.

[Soveryupset]

those who cannot control their lives have most mental illness

I absolutely agree with this, I have certainly observed this in a number of members of my own family. Nothing to do with status, wealth or work, but mostly with a sudden loss of control of one's circumstances and a spiralling decline which ensues. Could happen to anyone.

[cowbiscuits74]

see here for article on earnings of private vs. state graduates with the same degree although it does not say what class. As someone at my poly turned uni once said 'a first from here is the same as a third from Cambridge' not sure how true that is but interesting to think about

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/30/private-educated-earn-more-money_n_6073638.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

[theposterformallyknownas]

Totally agree about not having control and mental illness.
I used to live with depression most of the time, now our family is completely autonomous in that we can do pretty much what we like, when we want to do it with hardly any restrictions, certainly in terms of working.
You can move mountains when you have the freedom to do so.