The pros and cons of grammar - undecided - help!!

[CocktailQueen]

DD has just passed the 11+. We are not in a grammar county so the nearest one is a 20 minute car journey away (on a good traffic day).

I am undecided whether or not to apply to grammar for her. She says she wants to stay at her current school (but is mainly basing this on not wanting to be apart from her best friends), and I don't feel strongly enough either way to convince her (she wanted to sit the 11+, btw!)

Pros of staying where she is: she is enjoying school and has a nice bunch of friends; she can walk into town to meet friends at the weekend; she can out after school with friends; she has a 5-minute walk to school.

Cons: some kids are already calling her a swot/nerd; behaviour in her school can be interesting, to say the least; High turnover of teachers so not making as good progress as she could? She's supposed to be in a G&T programme at school but it seems to have fizzled out. She's be more stretched at grammar.

Pros of grammar: she would do better academically - but how much? That's the question. Would look better on her CV at the end of the day. But is it worth it?? Meeting new friends. New opportunities.

Cons: would she be too tired having to get up early and catch the bus every day? Longer days. Would she make new friends? Would she lose touch with old ones? I'd never see her... What would happen if she did clubs after school - would I have to pick her up or would she catch a normal bus home?!

Have arranged to go to open mornings of both local grammars this week, plus I will contact our local secondary school (which is within walking distance) and see if I can tour it as well.

Can anyone give me any advice? I know we have to decide this, but what other pros and cons can you think of? Sorry this is so long!!!

You could check the 'KS4 pupil progress - Best 8 value added' scores for the 'High Attainers' column for the respective schools on here:

www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/

Ideally, you're looking for a number over 1000 as I understand it (i.e, the school 'adds value' to your child).

20 minute car trip is not a disaster. My kids have that. Yes, 5 minute walk would be much better but I wouldn't make my school decision on that. Re friends, it's a natural break at 11 and lots of kids change schools and make new friends quickly.

I would imagine she would be more challenged at a grammar school but I don't know any of the school's involved here.

The open days will hopefully help.

20 minutes is a fairly short journey for high school.
The fact that she's bright and kids are already pointing it out and she isn't being stretched would sway it in favour of the Grammar school.
I was like your DD at 11 didn't want to leave my friends when it came to picking a high school but at 11 I didn't have the maturity or the foresight to understand the impact such a decision would have on my life.
I'm glad my mum insisted on the other school I only stayed a year due to moving but it was one of my best years if schooling.
I did not loose touch with my old friends if its a genuine friendship it will survive.

I would try and see if your DD could visit the schools with you it might help her feel involved and not seem such a scary propect once she's seen it.

She's year 6 and we are talking about which school for sept 2015 yes?

She's already the "class swot" that's really not a nice place to be. Surely she needs a peer group that regard academic ability as a good thing ? She can see old friends at weekends.

20mins is a short journey. up to 1hr is normal here both to go to grammars and to comps eg there is a group I see as I drive to work who bus/walk to the catholic comp and are on the way at 8am.

Visit the schools but I'd say grammar all the way and if it really doesn't work then backing out and getting an in year transfer place at the comp is likely to be possible. Swapping the other way very unlikely.

(caveat my 3 are grammar kids, they were all bullied in years 5 and 6 as brain boxes- DS most of all, they flew at grammar in every respect not just academically)

Go to the grammar. Why sit the test if you were not going to go? 20 mins is nothing and I would guess the grammar is the better all round school for her abilities and willshe thank you for denying her the opportunity in 20 years time? She will not be the clever one there, because they will all be the same and, as her parent, you have a responsibility to grab the best opportunity, not take the easy way out.

Is there a bus or would you have to drive her there? I would never have looked at a school that was reliant on parent transport as it would be far too restricting especially when they start after school activities. If there is a bus I'd send her as 20 minutes is nothing and if she's swotty she'll flourish there.

Sorry - it would be a bus trip to school. Possibility of school bus but public transport if not. Would take longer by bus - up to an hour depending on traffic. Wouldn't be so bad if more of her friends were going but only one is - not a v close friend.

She's at middle school so went there in year 5 and has settled in well but doesn't want to be uprooted again at the end of this year - which I can understand.

Going to open mornings with dd this week. Thanks for your thoughts.

presumable several middle schools feed into the one upper school : so there will be lots of "class swots"
BUT
it is NOT acceptable for the school to allow such bullying

Not bullying as such - just some name calling, talkinpeace. But am not keen on that in year 6. I want dd to be more confident, not less.

Obviously see how the open mornings are but I'd be leaning towards the grammar at this stage. I went to a normal comp initially, and was badly bullied for being the class swot. I found that "good" friends from primary school drifted apart and made new friends. My life was utterly miserable and I ended up moving to an academically selective school where I knew no-one, an hours bus ride away, and it was absolutely the best school experience I can imagine. I loved it, and made loads of friends who I am still close to.
That's not to say the same would be true for your DD, but if she's not being stretched and is already being called names for her brains at such a young age, I'd say it sounds like he grammar would be a better fit. You don't want her to end up "dumbing herself down" to fit in.

You have n't said how good the grammar schools are. Are they getting the results that they should from selection? Are they offering more choice of academic subjects? Are the grammar school equivalent top sets of the comprehensive doing as well for GCSE? If she had more time due to shorter days without travelling could she be stretched in other ways?
Depending on the answers then 1 hour travelling may or may not be worth it especially if she has the option of transferring to grammar for sixth form.

Summerends -I think so. Have looked at the website suggested above and both grammars are getting 98-100% of pupils achieving 5 GCSEs, A-C, over the past 5 years.

Value added is: 1030.3 NE 1048.0 1030.4

and there are lots more numbers I probably need to look at.)

I live in a grammar county and loads of kids do an hour's journey on a bus twice a day - I will be weighing up the same things as you and am considering it on a school by school basis rather than grammar vs non-grammar. DD1 is likely to pass (next year) but it doesn't automatically mean a grammar school.

I think two more years of a non stretching middle school (where she gets called a swot) verses a grammar school is no competition at all.

Yes the middle school will almost certainly set and do individual subjects in Y7, but it sounds like even the top group isn't going to be brilliant.

If she is already being called nerd and swot it's likely that, in the present bunch of kids, she will begin to play down her abilities to 'fit in' as a teenager.
Grammar seems a no-brainer. She can still see her current friends at weekend for as long as she needs to, but her friendship group will change eventually.

Thanks, all. You have helped clarify my thinking. I just have to persuade dd now.

The middle school does set for English and maths - dd's best subject is English and the teacher she had last year really encouraged her, but this year they have had 3 teachers and have a supply one now who dd is not keen on - I was hoping for better things, really, from the school.

DD is not a genius, but she is bright (level 6c for English, maths and science), has a good attitude and really wants to learn - I don't want her just interested in pop music and celebs (although she is as well); I want her to have a really good education.

OP, you don't have to persuade her. Please don't tie yourself in knots trying to do this. It isn't her decision. Of course you can point out the benefits and the upside and attempt to get her to be positive. But it will be a relief to your DD for you to be clear and unequivocal and to take total responsibility for this decision.

BTW, I think you've made the right decision. Good luck.

Thanks, LaQueen. DD is v organised and wants to learn. She gets frustrated with the kids in her class who don't. Don't think that aspect is anything to worry about.

I agree that she would thrive in an environment where everyone is more closely matched in ability and i can tell you from experience that in a grammar school kids are competitive about achieving higher results rather than seeing achievement as a negative