Is a school a "Place of Worship"? (Admissions related question)

[chuffinmuffins]

A nearby CofE secondary has admissions criteria that prioritises families where the parent or child attends "church/place of worship at least monthly and has done for a period of 12 months". A minister's signature is needed to verify that.

A friend is interested in applying for her child. The parents don't attend church regularly, but the child does go to a CofE primary school, which has daily worship (although of course that's compulsory in all schools). The school also has a close relationship with a neighbouring church. The vicar leads school assembly at least once per week, and the children go to the church for special occasions such as start/end term services, harvest festivals etc, so the children know him well.

My question is - does the school fulfill the definition of a "place of worship"? My friend is planning to ask the vicar for his signature, so ultimately it is his decision. It would seem reasonable to me, to expect him to agree to sign it, but I'm curious as to what others think.

Also, if this school does count as a "place of worship" then surely all other schools that follow the rules count as places of worship too?

I am so shocked it was signed. Dreadful.

We attend church, plan to apply for church school and get signature in the far off future when we need it (three years?? Haven't thought that far ahead yet) but at our baptism class the priest was very open: don't get your child baptised for a school place- if I don't know you or your child because you don't regularly attend mass then I am NOT signing any form.

I appreciated his upfront honesty, it should be that way. Putting your signature to an application you know to be fraudulent is a mockery of the system- and more importantly his own faith.

If the places weren't competitive, and she genuinely wasn't taking a place away from a religious family, surely she would have got in anyway?

I don't think 'sabotage' of the system by counting school attendance (with 9 visits to a church) as synonymous with 12 church attendances is going to achieve any fairness whatsoever.

Multiple references for children who have moved is neither uncommon nor problematic. But priests lying that 9=12? That will be.

AuntieStella, how about if a child attended church 9 times with the school, and the parents took them an additional 3 times. Would that make all the difference? I know they went at least once, for a baptism, and perhaps more than once, but I don't know for sure. They may not have 'signed in' though.

Well, getting to 12, if that is what is required, would be a start. But the number is just part of "worship monthly" for 12 months before applications deadline, which is imminent.

Frankly, if this school wants CoF Primaries as feeders, because that level of termtime school, not family, attendance is what it wants, it should name them. As there is no problem with naming 4-6 schools, there really is no reason not too.

I've no idea what the secondary's motivation is. They don't have any open places though, which is why people from my friend's area, a one hour bus commute away, apply for church places. They know people sometimes get in. It's by no means first on my friend's preference list though, so if her DC does get a place, it will only be because they haven't been able to get into one of their very oversubscribed local community schools.

There's a lot of pressure on places.

Well Tiggy, that school you describe must have learnt the hard way that they need to be specific. Other schools haven't, and as they're all separate admissions authorities it might take a while for the message to get through.

Unless someone appeals, the school has no incentive to change its policy, because it's getting lots of motivated, organised families on the back of the current policy.

It would certainly open the floodgates if appeals could be lodged along the lines you suggest

It is unlikely to be grounds for a successful appeal. If it was formal guidance it would potentially be grounds to refer admission criteria to the Schools Adjudicator. "Policy to encourage" sounds like it stops well short of formal guidance and therefore is unlikely to have any real effect.

the school has no incentive to change its policy

Many CofE schools hate people cheating the system to get a place. It is, after all, cheating - not a very Christian action. Some of these schools that have, according to you, no incentive actually go too far and end up excluding people who, according to the admission criteria, should have been admitted. In this case there is a very real chance that your friend's child could end up taking the place of another child where the family genuinely attend church regularly. For many CofE schools that is all the incentive they need both to tighten up their system and to throw out of the school any child where the parents have cheated to get a place.

None of your twisting around what you believe churches do and don't do about keeping a register in any way justifies blatant cheating which is what you have reported here. The justifications you are using are on a par with those given by people who lie about their home address to get their child into a popular school. It is cheating pure and simple, and I am appalled that a vicar is apparently colluding in this.

At least the child attended church albeit only 9 times. Other applicants don't even have needed to attended church at all by the sound of it, as long as a parent has! Bizarre!

In this case there is a very real chance that your friend's child could end up taking the place of another child where the family genuinely attend church regularly

I suspect that won't concern them - they know too many people applying to the same school who only started attending church recently to get a place. Plus, they know lots of former and continuing churchgoers in their CE primary who won't blink an eye at taking up one of the Good or Outstanding local community places, in preference to the distant CE secondary, meaning their DC has less chance of getting a local place.

In a system where there aren't enough places to go round, and some people have more options than others, people are just doing what they can to make sure they're not left high and dry.

I am appalled that a vicar is apparently colluding in this.

Then you'll be even more appalled about another story I heard from a different friend. Her DH was matey with a vicar living nearby - they would often go out for a drink together. They never went to church but he signed their form because he was annoyed that another church, adjacent to the school and with higher admission priority, was nicking his congregation.

they know too many people applying to the same school who only started attending church recently to get a place

Those people are obeying the rules as are the people in their CE primary who choose to name a community school as a preference. They had the option of obeying the rules themselves by going to church regularly. Instead they have chosen to cheat.

They are taking a huge risk. If they manage to get a place as a result of cheating and the school finds out what has happened after a place has been offered (or even after their child has started at this school) there is a good chance their child will lose the place. They will then be stuck with sending their child to the nearest school with places available. That is unlikely to be the school they would have got if they had been honest. It could well be a school they really want to avoid.

Contrary to what you seem to think schools generally don't want parents who are willing to cheat to get a place. A family that cheats is not organised and motivated. If this family were indeed organised and motivated they would have been attending church and wouldn't need to cheat. A family that cheats is often a problem for the school in other ways as they believe that their child's interests (or what they perceive as their child's interests - not necessarily the same thing) trump everything else and that the rules shouldn't apply to them.

Well then Prh, they should probably keep a little quieter about it, but as it's a low preference, then they will end up at the same last resort school whether they include it or not.

I am a school chaplain and have been asked a couple of times to sign forms to suggest that the child worships regularly (at school).
I have always declined as it is not voluntary - they don't have any choice at school. Religious practice is what you do with your family when you are not in school

But Tommy attendance at school acts of worship is not compulsory.

Well, so much for 'church schools' when even the vicar is a fraud. And OP, a school is not a place of worship, it is just that - a school. You can argue it differently till the cows come home and it is still a school. I've always said church schools' Boards of Governors especially Catholic ones, are where you'll find loads of hypocrites and bigots gather under one roof.

I hope this reassures people, but faith schools do make checks on applications particularly from churches that don't usually send in applications, or haven't sent in any applications before, or have an unusually high number of applicants one year.
If a family claim that the child attends on their own or with a grandparent they would check the Sunday school registers as evidence.
Supplementary notes provided with the form clearly state that church attendance means Sunday services (or other services held at the church midweek). Also that the church must be a recognised Christian denomination.

in most Catholic schools the acts of worship are not optional. If parents want to opt out of them, they would be encouraged by the Head and governors to opt out of the school.....

There was a big upset a few years ago with one of our oversubscribed CofE schools. The church had a new vicar who had no idea who'd been regularly attending in the last 3 years (as stated in the admissions procedure), so signed everyone off!
I didn't hear what the outcome of the appeals was, only the outrage

I wonder how the 'place of worship' works for schools that have their own chapels and conduct Sunday services. We have a couple of private boarding schools in our area that fit this category and their children do sometimes go on to the State secondaries.
We also have a CofE church that worships in a local primary school - they've outgrown their original premises - but I assume that would definitely count as a place of worship.

Well done peteneras you have just shown yourself to be as much a ignorant bigot as those you are judging. With all due respect you don't have the first clue about how the state system actually works seeing as your child goes or went to the most elite school in the country. In fact I think that's literally bloody rich. I have no issues with any parents sending their child private but don't start spouting hypocritical stuff at those of us who are not lucky enough to be in your position. U find it incredible people feel they they can call all faith schools bigoted especially Catholic ones and not see the irony in their own ignorant generalising.

If you had cared to do some quick research here at MN buffyp instead of shooting like diarrhoea from your mouth about my ‘ignorant generalising’ of Catholic schools and calling me an ’ignorant bigot’ who don’t have the first clue about how the state system works, why, you might then be all that much wiser and your child might even go to the country’s most elite school too.

But what I’m seeing here is another hypocrite trying to mask his/her jealousy of the private school system whilst this thread is wholly and solely about faith schools. Not being funny when I say this, buffyp, I know more about the workings of state schools especially Catholic schools, their Boards of Governors, their management, etc. more than you know about the back of your own hands!

And if you want a discussion about state vs. the private system, then start a new thread but for now let’s keep this thread as faith schools.

Take a quick look at something I had written on this subject* some 4 years ago, maybe even before you discovered the Catholic church/school yourself. And if you also read a further posting here, you’ll see I’ve far more knowledge about the state system then the 10 of you put together and who indeed is the ignorant bigot!

Now, before you make a fool of yourself again, let me say I’ve no issues with the Catholic Church. For that matter, I’ve no quarrels with Catholic schools per se. But I have a lot of contempt and disgust for many members of Catholic school boards especially those in central and north London. My DD went to what is regarded as the UK’s top (and I mean TOP) Catholic school. She went there as a matter of right by virtue of her coming in the top quartile of the entrance exams and not because the Board of Governors liked her.

Yes, I would like to see the hypocritical policies/decisions of Catholic schools be permanently burnt in hell fire and all Catholic schools to admit pupils of all faiths and no faith.

*p.s. And what did I say in November 2010 that Nick Clegg should do? The hypocrisy is so stunning you must be blind not to see that.