11+ Question

[BaconAndAvocado]

DS2 is in year 3 and at last weeks parents evening I was told,that they have already tested them to see if they will be potential candidates for the 11+ in Year 6.

I know very little about 11+ as DS1 didn't sit it.

What scores do you need to achieve to pass?

On his (hope,this is right!) verbal test he scored 112 and on his non-verbal test he scored 102.

Tia

They have tested them? How?! Did they mention the CATs because that's the only standardised test that can possibly give any indication.

Standard 11+ pass rate in our County is 120, but it has been known for children to get that and not have got into a Grammar school.

I should also say that even if your DS scored those in y3 tests, it does not mean that he cannot go on to get a place at Grammar school. So much can change between now and then!

In Bucks the pass mark is 121. Around 30% of children pass.

Make that 121 then

looks I can't remember what the name of the test was, it just seems very early to be doing it?!

Thanks for info

Pass marks depends where you are, which grammar you are looking at and how well people have done that year. standard pass rate here is at least 120 on each test, but to get into my nearest grammar last year you needed 140 marks out of a possible 142.

Testing in year 3 is madness.

Many kids don't mature until later.A lot of the 11+ is vocab based and age has an impact on this.Some very bright kids may well not have the necessary maths/Eng skills yet and will be written off poss miss out on the extra focus.

Also the pressure on those poor kids having just do be a Sats.

Done

Depends whether they are CAT tests or SAT tests.

SATS, as my limited experience and knowledge as a parent of a child who's just done the 11+ stretches, are age standardised where the mean is 100. In Kent, where about 24% pass the test, this means that the average pass score is 118 on each paper. Or at least it was, until this year, when they totally fucked it up changed it and rumour has it the pass score has been lowered considerably.

Having said that, my DS's SAT score rose significantly from year to year, the sharpest increase from Y4-5, so not sure how relevant a Y3 score would be?

In terms of CATs, I have no idea how these are scored. I know our DC were put through CATs test at the end of Y5, for use in case of 11+ appeals! but we have never been given the scores.

All this aside, teachers are IME in a good position to comment if they are experienced in this, which children might suit a grammar education. That's the important thing here - not whet here they would pass he test, but whether yr child would suit that school.

My DD scored in the 90s in non-verbal reasoning, 110ish for verbal reasoning, and 115ish for quantitative reasonin (aka maths) in her Year 5 CATS. In her 11+ she actually scored 140, 140 and 136. If you think your son is a grammar school candidate ignore these scores, and get some practice books when your son is in year 5. The Eleven Plus Forum will give you advice on the correct material for your area/school.

But how will teachers know who is suited?Many haven't a clue and to be frank a teacher saying who or who isn't suitable out of a class of 30 would give me cause for concern.

We were told at our primary that they are often surprised who passes and who doesn't.As they don't have a clue what the exam involves or the school itself(having far more pressing things to worry about for the maj such as comp feeder schools and Sats ) this doesn't surprise me.

Any family with a kid who wants to do it should just have a bash imvho and not be swayed by media,primary schools or lack of confidence.

If you have been teaching for a number of years, it is often pretty easy to hazard a guess at the children who are candidates for grammar school. This doesn't mean that they will reach the required mark in the test, just that they would get on well in a grammar school environment.

Where we are, there are quite a few schools and each one is slightly different. A child who is suitable for one grammar school may not be suitable for the other as they focus on different things.

Your school should know what the test involves and what the grammar schools are like, in order to give the best possible advice to those parents who aren't a sure whether to put their child through or not.

A teacher won't look at a class and say who will or won't pass but they do (in our county at least) have to mark all children, before they sit the test, on how likely they are to cope in a grammar school. They will look at how they work within class, their attitude to learning and their performance. This has to be done so that if they don't get through the exam and have to go to appeal, the county can use these additional measurements.

For example, if a school is saying that a child who did scored 120 is really suited and another child who also scored 120 isn't, then the county will use the school's grading to make the decision.

It's incredibly difficult for the y6 teachers and something I know they take very seriously. It isn't a perfect system, that's why there is a 12 and 13+ but as people who spend a great deal of time, in an academic situation, they are the best people to decide.

What the school should not be doing is teaching for the test. They are administrators.

Sorry for essay! I agree that all children who want to, should have a bash and I don't think any school would stop a child from doing so.

Sorry I don't think any teacher can make that call.They have classes for a year only and teachers all have different personalities as do kids who can and do develop at different rates.

Would love to know what the qualities are which guarantee success at grammar schools which also differ hugely.

You may not think it, but they have to do it. It's done in liaison with the y5 teacher usually. If not them, then who? Someone has to do that grading and teachers are better qualified than most others, so far as I can see!

If they have made the wrong call, and disagree with their own grading (and it does happen) then they can include that in their appeal contribution. Which takes them hours btw.

No qualities guarantee success at any grammar school. It is a 'to the best of my knowledge, this child should cope'.

What I meant by the different grammar schools is that some are very exam focused while others are more nurturing. Some place an emphasis on arts and design while others are better known for sports.

It's about finding the right school and being able to cope within it, the test is an unfortunate part of it.

Y3 is still too early to say whether they will or won't be suited though.

Very few primary schools get involved at all with the 11+ so not sure what you mean by somebody has to do the grading.

Appeal,you can only appeal after you've done the 11+,nobody can stop a child taking it so not sure why there is a need to appeal anything.

We are not allowed to advise parents about whether their child should sit the 11+ or not, it is not in our remit AT ALL, indeed we could be disciplined if we did! It is a parental decision, not a school one. The only time we get involved at all is at appeal time when we can give FACTUAL information about a child's academic achievement and co-oborate any claims regarding special circumstances.

LePetit I think I have misunderstood your posts!!

I was just (badly, probably) trying to explain that schools should be informed enough to talk about the 11+ not that they decide who goes in to it.

As spaniel says, who sits it has nothing to do with the school, and nor does the schools they put on as their preferences.

Sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying, small toddler was distracting

Looks our HT has to grade everyone on academic potential and attitude to learning and submit to county before the results are issued. Our head is happy to tell people her recommendations. Everyone here sits it unless you opt out.

Same here! That's what I was trying to say but totally misunderstood what LePetit was actually saying

I thought that's what you meant . Don't know if other counties do it though which might be why others are confused?

Found out today it was a CAT test!

Hmm as a teacher and a mother I don't.

A lot of boys mature hugely between years 2 and 5. My DS is a different child and would certainly have been written off back then.Quiet children are often very overlooked and confidence can often be mistaken as intelligence.Some kids can take a few years to build up confidence and shine.

It's interesting quite a few of the top set kids in dd's class back in year 2 are no longer there.