Choosing a Primary - does the general ability of others matter?

[SoonMeansNever]

Help please - need to apply for DS1 to start next Sept, so new to all this stuff and it's getting a bit can't-see-the-woods-for-the-trees.

Our nearest Primary school (10 min walk), and the only one we're in catchment for, has had a bad reputation for years, hardly anyone who has a choice sends their kids there, mixture of snobbery/bad Ofsted/much better schools nearby. Barely escaped Special Measures. It has improved slightly in the last couple of years, and is on the way up IMO. County have expanded it's catchment to try to 'encourage' force the MC areas people to use it.
Everyone I have spoken to locally says "Do not send him there", but none of them have DC there and don't appear to have direct knowledge of the school. I wonder if their prejudice is just a few years out of date and now unfounded?
When we went to look around, both DH and I liked it.

The thing that's holding me back is that the Ofsted report makes a big point about the fact that the general ability of incoming students is well below average. They do progress well, but they don't ever seem to catch up or excell, just staying below average for their age. They have a far higher than average proportion of children than qualify for support/funding/various other needs. New head this term.
Does it matter if their peers are low achievers? In my head I think that surely a bright child taught with a majority of less able children will drop down to the general level? The school has great staff, nice atmosphere, kids seemed lovely, decent facilities.
We've had a lot of discussions with DS's preschool due to his behaviour (possible ASD, now discounted), and they have pushed the point that they think he's very bright, but from my point of view his behaviour snowballs when his mind wanders - so maybe he would be worse in a less challenging school?
So - do we push for DS to go elsewhere that has an intake with higher ability, or accept the place that we'll inevitably be given at the local school?

The other two Primary schools nearby are good/outstanding, with more strict behaviour rules etc, and we'd be happy for DS1 to go to either, but we're just out of catchment and they're v popular, so not massively likely he'd get in.
There are good Infant schools he could go to further afield if there were spaces, but that means changing schools again when he moves up to Juniors.

Hope that made sense, I'd be grateful for any advice!

My daughter is at an OFSTED inadequate primary with a bad reputation. Last year she finished reception with "exceeding" in every category of the early years foundation stage. I don't think that the fact that some of her classmates are low achievers/ SEN children have stopped her achieving.

The fact that your local school has a nice atmosphere with nice staff and decent facilities means a lot. In the early years its very easy to support your child's learning at home.

I suppose its slightly different for you if your child might be on the spectrum. You need a school that is welcoming and positive about children with special needs. Its worth making an appointment with the head/ SENCO to ask what a school will do to help your child.

Personally id want at least a small group of able kids because academically/mentally they do bounce of each other. Also there's more chance of a teacher stretching a small group of able children rather then one singular able child.

I also think sending a child to an extremely academic school where they are very bottom of the class can be quite detrimental confidence wise.

Thank you Really!
This is the thing - in fact, I wonder if the fact that they're under scrutiny because of the previous low standards makes the school better IYKWIM?
Plus the fact that not wanting my PFB to go there because of the other children is so bloody horrible an attitude - but then I'm conflicted by the whole "don't put your principles ahead of your child" thing.
Gah!! So confused!

I really want to meet more parents from the school, with actual first hand knowledge.

Sorry, slow typing here Pom, yes I agree.

DD's school has quite a social mix. There are a lot of families on benefits and aspirational families who have moved out of London for more affordable housing. Most schools have a mixture of families and I am sure that your son would not be the only middle class child.

"Personally id want at least a small group of able kids because academically/mentally they do bounce of each other. Also there's more chance of a teacher stretching a small group of able children rather then one singular able child. "

There are some extremely bright children whose families are on benefits. It is a myth to think that white working class children lack intelligence or that a middle class child would have no one to "bounce ideas off".

"I really want to meet more parents from the school, with actual first hand knowledge."

I think this would be a really good idea. The fact that there is a new head means that there school will have changed a lot in a short period of time. Its previous reputation may be unjustified. Have you looked on Parentview

parentview.ofsted.gov.uk/

to see what parents think of the school.

Gawd, who thinks working class children lack intelligence?? Yikes. No one I know I hope.
The general consensus from the people I've spoken to (mostly neighbours with kids) seems to be that those children lack encouragement at home, and expectations of them to do better - the families (of all classes) who take an interest in their children's education send them elsewhere, so the school has ended up with a disproportionally low amount of high ability pupils.
Going to look it up on Parentview now, thank you for the link Reality!

Fark. Obvs I meant Really. I'm Really Tired too.

The only year with responses is 2012/13, and less than 20 responses in total, but most people seem happy with the school and their DCs progress. A solid 5% were v unhappy, most were either happy or v happy.

Hmmmm, more thinking to do! I just wish that we had NO choice and just had to go to the nearest school - that way we wouldn't end up with this stupid system of 'preferred' schools that are self-segregating. It's a bloody minefield!

pompom has it exactly.

At our small combined year primary some bright DCs have left when they are the only really cleaver child in their year group, others have stayed because they have thick skins and parents prepared to hang in there because it was convenient.

DD2 was lucky there were 4 bright DCs in her year and the second table wanted to do well too. All her class, regardless of ability were lovely.

At secondary chort makes massively less difference, to HA DCs, as all, but the very worst schools can make an able top set.

(It can make a difference to Middle Ability DCs if set 2/3 have too many can't be bothered to tries)

Look at the performance tables and check what the value added results are because that will show if a child makes good progress regardless of ability.

It's tricky because change will probably be tricky for him because of the ASD - so maybe the first school could be better in that sense.

I think different schools suit different children. I could have sent my child to the local extremely competitive high achieving school on my road but went for a very warm pastoral school where the kids are more comprehensive but achieve well despite it being a bike ride.

Go with your gut

It was the ethos that I liked

We sent our children to the local village primary when they started school. It was a lovely small school, good OFSTED, with a really friendly feel and they both did really well for the first couple of years.

However, the small class sizes meant that there was no real competition for the brighter children. My son in particular thrives on competition, and when being top of the class was easy, he began to coast a little. So we moved them to a bigger school, and his results have improved dramatically as he's actually having to try hard to get where he wants to be.

Having said that, it depends a lot on the character of your child(ren), class sizes and the teaching standards!

Thank you, it's really helpful hearing your experiences.
Just to clarify, DS hasn't been dx with ASD, it has been raised as a possibility, but mostly discounted - I guess we'll wait and see if he outgrows certain behaviours.

My DC go to a school with a bad reputation and a mixed intake.

People suck in their breath when they hear my DC go there. When I ask why it's normally because of some Chinese whispers about something that was true about 12 years ago.

Yes, the results aren't as good as "leafy primary" a mile away. It would be amazing if they were. You do have to dig deeper. How do children like your child do?

The OFSTED schools dashboard is a useful tool to see how a school compares with similar schools. It not fair to compare a school in a challenging area with a school in a leafy suburb.

dashboard.ofsted.gov.uk/

We had a similar dilemma. We are equidistant from 2 primary schools so had a good chance of getting into either. One is where all the naice white middle class kids go, the other is much more ethnically diverse, more SEN, high proportion FSM etc. When we were applying 3 years ago they both had 'good' OFSTED ratings, but the second had a very poor reputation locally - it was in special measures about 10 years ago - pace of change of reputation is glacial.
Our older son is bright and we were concerned whether he would be appropriately challenged. School 1 had been criticised by OFSTED for not stretching the more able children, and their whole attitude I found complacent - they rely heavily on having a middle class well supported intake, but their results are nothing special, school 2 does much better on 'value-added' criteria, though worse overall. We went with school 2 (to much cats-bum-face-ing) and have never regretted it. They have fantastic structures in place for differentiating work for their extremely varied intake of children. My son has had 1-2-1 literacy support, been moved up to a higher year group for some lessons, been in a small group for able mathematicians run by the head and is doing extremely well - he got solid level 3s in his SATS and is expected to reach level 5/6 by the end of primary school. At the other end of the spectrum there is loads of TA support, out of school nurture clubs, reading catch-ups etc to ensure that all the children who are struggling or who are not supported at home are also achieving their potential. School 2 is now "good with outstanding elements" and school 1 is "inadequate" but local reputation is unchanged and we still get the cat's bum faces
Go with what you feel is best for your individual child. It's worth talking to school about how they cater for bright students.
The other factor is your likelihood of getting places elsewhere. Make sure that at least one school that you are happy with and that you realistically will get into (you can find out the furthest away applicant that got in for previous years) features on your application, or you will find yourself being offered the undersubscribed school nobody wants miles away.

I personally think the methodologies to come up with similar schools (and I can't find more than a general description of how Ofsted determine what schools are simliar, anywhere) are deeply flawed.

For example ,Ofsted uses averages to determine starting point - which means that schools with a very diverse ability range may end up with an "average" starting point and be compared with schools that simply have a fairly uniform set of average children. In general children starting at lower levels will make fewer levels of progress, so the more diverse school is always likely to do worse. I also, can't see how it takes mobility into account, so if you have a school with high mobility you are going to be comparing a whole bunch of children's starting points, with a whole different bunch of children's ending points- clearly meaningless. (I admit my own DC's school does very badly on the dashboards- having actually looked at some of the "similar" schools, I am struggling to see how anyone other than a computer would consider them similar). I've found it more useful to look at other schools nearby with a similar intake and see how they do.

2 things would matter to me

1. is there a group, however small that is at his ability level. Kids do need a bot of a peer group to work alongside. The rest of the class isn't so important, a wide selection of kids is fine as long as there are a few

1. How does the school aim to meet that ofsted goal of getting their high achievers achieving? Go in and ask them, tell them you have seen the ofsted comment and ask what new things are being put in place to address that issue.

The answer to that will make a huge difference.

dcs school has a very mixed intake, but the school is very good at getting the best out of all kids.

There are schools with really diverse intakes that make the outstanding grade. I find it more useful to compare schools in areas I know.

My daughter's school was truely crap. The new head teacher has changed the school dramatically and results have improved substantially. OFSTED are interested to see that all children make progress. The new system is infact fairer than the old OFSTED framework in that respect.

Well, i think it will be a personal decision for you and your family. Our local primary sounds very similar - i have just been eaten alive on another thread for making the decision to go independent to avoid either that school or the other option which is being bussed to a school miles away that has spacees ( not enough primary space locally).

My husband and my parents seem to strongly believe if you have a middling child ( which most of us do, and my toddler is nicely average) then their achievement and goals will riseif average achievement is higher ( or vice versa). I thinkthere is something in this.

Look at all your options and choose what seems best for your child at the moment.

Good luck.

Another one here who sent her son to a failing 'OMG you're sending him there?!' school. He's year 6 now and has had a really great time. Doing well academically, lovely friends from all manner of backgrounds. He's happy and genuinely thriving. If you liked it, just trust your instinct. That's what we did and if it really doesn't work out he can move down the line. Not ideal I know, but equally not the end of the world.

I meant to say in my post, but I'd bet there aren't kids who are bright at the school. My son has quite a group who challenge and push him. The two kids who are head and shoulders above him academically both don't speak English at home and live on an estate.

I've just had a really interesting trawl thru ParentView, the 'bad' school has really positive reviews but I was far more surprised to see that 'best' school (in local popular opinion) has a pretty negative response. To be fair, there were only 11 replies, but still, they painted a pretty negative picture. Neither DH or I liked it when we looked around, but got swept up by local opinion and had been convinced it must be great.
It's been bumped down the list now!

The school we really want (and liked on the tour) has fantastic reviews, so I'll still keep my fingers crossed that he gets in there, but if not, we'll be happy with our local I think.