Peter Symonds Winchester- just heard...

[Tansie]

...that they've apparently increased their intake by 500?? Friend's DS says that you now have to be there really early in order to get a place on a computer at the Study Centre (or whatever it's called) and that the place is heaving.

Anyone else found this? It's a possibility for my DS but I am getting a bit nervous! The friend's DS (high enough achieving, I should add, ex-private school, sports teams, 'proper' A levels)- says he feels he's increasingly 'just a grade point', not an individual ...

My DS has just started there. I can't comment on whether the intake has increased by 500 but he says there's never a problem getting on a computer.

Overall we are very impressed and the pastoral care seems good. He doesn't feel like just a number. We did find though, when looking at colleges, that PSC appears to be a bit 'marmite' in how it divides opinions.

Are you doing the usual round of open evenings?

Just BP and PS.

DS1 is very '15' and requiring quite a lot of encouragement to achieve something near his potential (by which I mean 10 GCSEs inc triple science & maths at A-A*- sort of thing). I increasingly think that such a DS won't necessarily thrive at a huge 6th form full of highly motivated, high achieving (MC!) DC. The DS who's mum has informed me is doing A2s, now. It was he who said he feels his 'value' as a student is measured in predicted grades. This time last year, this mum was praising how amazing PS was, too.

I guess most of the input I have otherwise heard re PSC does come from delighted parents of 10 A grade, plus, GCSEs, nice, mature, and yes, compliant girls! Who if they aren't studying are leading a youth club, playing county sport or county youth orchestra, etc.

Horses for courses, I guess! I want to make it clear, this isn't a 'MY 6th form is better than yours' thing at all; but my observation is that PS does appear to only really be interested in its high fliers. I 'get' that PSC on a CV looks great, but maybe increasingly not-so-great for a DC who might be an ever smaller fish in an ever bigger pond!

I mean '10 GCSEs, among which should be As in Maths and Science'- he won't get A for Spanish or English!

My son is at BP and is thriving . He is a quiet boy but has been encouraged out of his shell and is going from strength to strength . I would definitely recommend BP as all my dealings with it have been very positive .

Sounds like mine! Well, it is early days for us - just starting week 4. We looked at BP and loved it. After the taster day DS wanted to go there for a because of the cool café , but as soon as he went to the PS taster day he was hooked. I had a lot of reservations about PS mainly based on rumours I must admit, and it is costing us more than double in train fares than the BP bus pass would have been. Anyway the decision is now made and so far so good. I hope it's the right decision (for the sake of my purse among other things!)

Based on my experience so far, and thinking about the group from our secondary school that have gone to PS, they are certainly not all 10 A*s types, one or two yes, but otherwise a mix of grades. I have heard though that a fair amount of weeding out goes on as time progresses.

Yes, 'the weeding process'! I've also heard about this, how DC are asked to leave if they don't achieve predicted grades etc; which is fair enough- they have a reputation to uphold, and don't need to 'coax' the less high-flying as they have plenty who have never encountered a moment's academic doubt- but I am increasingly feeling that DS will fly once The Great Maturity tectonic plates move sufficiently... I can see him having to resit GCSEs at 6th form the way his Y10 report read! Maybe I exaggerate but I am nervous of a college that is bulging at the seams and my DS who will need some personalised attention, barring a great leap forward in terms of maturity over the next few months!

My DD is having similar thoughts about another sixth form college. So having applied there we are going to look at others. I believe you can hold more than one offer - right up to about the time GCSE results come out.

I would try to find out what a range of students there think about the place. And bluntly ask the staff about your concerns. It isn't in any sixth form's interests to have students start but fail (even if they gently push them out of the door).

All my family have been through PS first one started in the 1940s last one left to go to uni a fortnight ago.(Another 7 years or so before the next 2 get there) All together we range from very academic to not the greatest but enough up there to get by.

Symonds has served us all well though have noticed with db's dc who have just left, the advice they got with UCAS was not as good as the help my dc got in their school. Comes down to size I think and simply not knowing the students individually in sufficient depth to be able to advise properly.

however, Symonds is a much better stepping stone to uni than a school 6th form imo and if I was still in Winchester, I wouldn't think twice about sending my dc there

Yes, I must say if I were in Winch, I'd need to be quite 'put off' PS not to send a DC but BP is 3 miles away, PS is 7 miles which is also a factor.

If DS were 'classic' PS material as detailed above, it would be No Contest but I am wavering due to the sheer number of people whose opinion I respect who qualify their satisfaction with PS with terms like 'no second chances/ weeding/ bulging/ self-motivated only /viewed as just a predicted grade' etc. It increasingly does 'only' need to serve the top performing pupils, really, doesn't it, as they're beating down its gates!

For the record, my DCs are at the top performing comp, academically in Hants and my experience there, although generally 'good', reveals a bit of a disconnect when it comes to dealing with the able enough DC who needs guidance and motivation in order to perform. My initial approaches about DS failing to live up to his potential were met with prospectuses for trade apprenticeships at the local Tech... rather than a detailed examination of why DS (who is capable of let's say As in the sciences and Maths, Bs in English, Geog, Computer Science and B/C in MFL and tech - and has no inherent manual or practical ability, or interest, whatsoever) - failed a Business and Communications GCSE taken this past summer; having been predicted a B! Now I've come on a bit Tiger Mommy, they're looking out for him better but I worry that although he says he wants to try for PSC, should I be guiding him away? Having already been 'caught out' by a glittering school which only serves the motivated brightest? IF he wasn't interested in PSC, I wouldn't even be asking you lot!

I think at 16 its his decision. Sorry. He also should be working to improve his grades and see why he failed that GCSE. Its his responsibility, and there are very few sixth forms who do not expect a lot of self-motivation.

(BTW those don't sound like amazing GCSE grades - what does he want to do, where is he aiming for, what are his talents.)

I went there over 30 years ago. It was more like a uni than the teacher training college I went to afterwards.

All interesting, we are doing the rounds at the moment, but have discounted PS for my DS. He's very dyslexic and definitely needs guidance and a lot of support from me and his school to perform and I think would be a bit lost in PS.

He's very motivated but his reading ability makes it very difficult for him. We have looked at BP and liked it going to see Eastleigh and Brockenhurst next few weeks, and thinking BTEC rather than straight A levels. He's expecting mainly B's.

(and I'm well aware I'm probably a Tiger mum.. but don't really care!)

mummy they aren't 'amazing', but they're also not 'plastering apprenticeship'. In some ways, you've hit the nail on the head: 10 straight As is The Benchmark for a PS education; there is no realistic place there for a middle-of-the-road performer. There will be plenty of DC at PSC with the grades I think DS can get- but are their needs being met there? This is really my question. I am increasingly thinking my 'fears' about PSC sizing up yet further, bulging and only really for the DC who sail through their 10 GCSEs are founded! As already stated, I have observed that the most 'pleased with PSC' parents are those whose clever, highly motivated, compliant DC have never encountered an educational obstacle in their lives. I was wondering, on here, whether other parents of not-so-academically-amazing and a-bit-more-challenging DC felt the same.

And he's not 16, he's 15 and 3 months. I will have to remain on his tail, as I should, for a good couple of years yet! It's my job. And with respect, I do find those who say 'the child must decide' at 10/15/17 tend to be the parents of DC who they know will make 'the right' choice!

Actually, I should add that BP has the same entry requirements for the A levels DS thinks he'd like to do as PSC. This is an important observation- the colleges differ in teaching style due to differing intakes across their board, not necessarily in grade output. BP has far more DC retaking GCSEs and doing 'equivalent' courses. PSC has more prestige than BP and might be better prep for uni, but DS won't get to uni if he gets kicked out of PSC for under-performance!

Can you tell I'm talking myself around to BP? .

I guess the reason DS is even in the running for PS is that his school have identified him as being in their upper cohort- triple science is only offered to the 'guaranteed' (ahem) A-A*, he's in the second maths group with the top group containing some DC who've had their A level for a few years, and who do Stats GCSE at 15. Only now is DS being given (and is needing) more support to overcome his 'adolescence'!

DS's problem is in being 15 and a bit! Which he won't be forever! If PS was 'for him', from 16 and a bit to 18+, he should go but I am thinking their apparent very recent expansion and maximum capacity might spell yet less interest in the potential success over the dead cert. This time last year, we hadn't even considered BP but the 2 colleges seem to be moving away from each other in ethos.

On Wiki, that bastion of The Truth, PS has 3800 pupils, now (plus 500?), BP has 2600.

Sorry but at least one of mine is a child who struggled and at present is a drop out. But I couldn't at 15/16 make any of my children do very much. Actually most of his grades are better than your sons predicted but to be frank if he did a plastering apprenticeship I would be happy!

Girls tend to be: more highly motivated, are more obvious about hard work, and more grown up.
Boys tend to need a bit more help to get a clue, but if at 16 (as he will be when he starts sixth form) pretty much any sixth form in the country will put a lot more pressure on them to be self-motivated. And in my experience even a pretty nurturing one can be a bit late to respond to parental warnings.

To be honest even my local sixth form colleges are smaller than PS or BP, for which I am grateful. However my advice would be that unless it is very different where you are, you can hold more than one sixth form offer until August. Young people can grow up and change a lot in these few months.

My ds went to PSC and is now in 2nd year at university, dd has just started lower VI at PSC. Both achieved 'good', not stellar GCSEs (mix of As and Bs) and both chose mainly 'facilitating' A levels.

Dd is now in week 4 and is finding it hard. The college is big and dd says the campus feels very crowded sometimes. She says 'everything is difficult. The work, getting there, making friends'. She is also very tired. But, I think this is normal. It is hugely different to school. The pace is fast and students are expected to be self motivated. BUT there is lots of support too - the tutorial system works well and subject teachers are very willing to provide extra help and all subjects hold lunchtime workshops.

I have no experience of other sixth forms but I do think PSC is a really good stepping stone to higher education.

I am very much hoping mine won't 'drop out'! He's very much looking to me for guidance about 6th form as he knows I take his future very seriously (I'm not suggesting you don't!!) as, being a grown up, I can see rather further than he can! And, if he made an realistic, educated, informed and properly researched 'choice' to go to a certain college, that he could 'sell' to me, I'd be delighted at his motivation and initiative!

As it is, my job is to guide him as best I can (I know the parents of DC at both colleges and many of their DC personally, DS doesn't!) and, let's face it, know I did everything I could for him.

Interestingly, the 'it's their lives, butt out' argument is never cited when it comes to selecting a small, nurturing, tightly controlled private secondary school for a DC who'd drown in a state comp, is it? To ensure that DC gets the grades necessary for The Next Stage? That's seen as being the thing any responsible parent should do; whereas guiding a 15 year old to the right and best 6th form college they can aspire to is seen as interfering! It'd be a lot less of an issue is the DC was by virtue of a carefully managed set of GCSEs, naturally heading for The Best 6th form, wouldn't it?! Maybe if I'd sent DS1 private, where he'd have been far more tightly supervised than his huge state comp can manage, he wouldn't be, at 15, still struggling with deadline meeting and time management? And a 'dead cert' for PSC?!

For the record, I have no issue with plastering apprenticeships! Ideal for the right candidate! Interestingly, at 11 I imagined DS2 would be heading in that direction but he is doing rather better academically than I though he would and, at 13, is showing no adolescent rebellion, yet!

As for the predicted grades, they're my predictions for him, not the school's. They were airily predicting As across the board til early last summer! But I know DS better than that, and have seen that he's faltering, now, thus maybe isn't what I now perceive 'PS material' to be. I did O levels 35 years ago when what I stated would have been considered a very good, solid result, certainly uni-worthy! It's interesting that your DS did so much better than this, yet obviously hasn't been able to capitalise on them. Of course, I wouldn't dream of asking you to spell it out on here, but - what went 'wrong'? Can you see how I might, for lack of knowledge of your situation- suggest, 'wrong choice of 6th form'? Which I'm trying to avoid!

Oh I know - my grades would be disgraceful now - but got me to Uni and were the best in my Sixth form. A flat mate got to Medical School with B's, and I even knew people at Oxford with Bs.

My DD is aiming very high, but is now also lining up a back up for her back up as that Sixth Form college (although smaller than PS) has a bit of a shape up or out reputation (mainly from teachers), and its worrying her. So we're off next week or so to look at two other possibilities.

My DS will make it, he just needed to come off the conveyor belt sometime - and at least its cheaper than once he'd got to Uni.

If it were me, I'd hold a place at both (or more if you can?!) and wait to see how he develops this year.

Talk to him, explain your view on it and see what he says.

He has quite a while yet before starting so he'll probably go one way or the other before then and your decision will be made easier.

Good luck.

Oh and I disagree with letting 15/16 year olds make their own choices too, they need guidance at least and some still just need telling. Parenting doesn't stop at 15 as some MNers seem to think it does, it's an odd concept.

Soprano -thanks for the input. PS will certainly be considerably harder for DS to get to than BP. And, as I keep banging on, I'd like him to go there but only if it were right for him. I am worried about this apparent huge increase in intake (bearing in mind that you can successfully teach 'clever, motivated' DC all together in huge groups), the alleged fight for study space and, to be honest, the quite small size of the site, given the number of DC there!

I agree entirely about 'preparation for uni' but, as I mentioned in my last post, parents don't choose to send their DC to a huge, rough'n'tumble bog-standard comp in order to prepare them for state 6th form, they try and send them to a school that will best turn their potential into GCSE grades, at its most crude! Then deal with the adjustment problems a DC might have in that state 6th form (there is much anecdotal evidence of private DC failing at huge state 6th forms due to the withdrawal of constant supervision, or failing to cope at uni for the same reason- I get that!). I do wonder whether DS might be better off at a less well-regarded, more nurturing 6th form whilst he hopefully gains the maturity to cope with uni!

As already stated, up until this past summer, to our minds, with the A levels DS wants to do, PS and BP differed only in status, but I am now wondering if now also in direction, especially when coupled with DS's educational wobble!

DC1 has just started at PS doing level 2 courses as his GCSE's weren't enough to move onto A level courses.
The pastoral care for him has been amazing, there is no sense that he is just a number and he's not remotely academic.
He's hoping to do the IT diploma and a couple of A levels next year and he's never been given the impression that he's somehow less important because of it.

One more thing about the size of PSC - although it IS huge, dd reports that her class sizes are around 20 - 22, quite a bit smaller than class sizes at her school.

That's good to hear, velvet.

I want to make it perfectly clear that I am by no means denigrating 'less-than-perfect As at GCSE'. In some ways, what I see as a problem for DS1 is his 'middle-of-the-road-ness'. I don't believe him to be straight A material, but he's also not 'plastering apprenticeship' material; that wouldn't suit him at all. But is PS the right college for a DS who has the potential to keep up in maths/science A level courses but might need more support than might be forthcoming as he hasn't been identified as a struggler?

Should such a DS still try for PS with the possibility of failure or go straight to BP where the teaching might be less focused, maybe might be done by someone who just taught the plasterers basic functional maths, last period, and will be pleased with any pass grade from their A level students? I don't for a second believe BP is necessarily like that (written only for illustrative purposes!) but most of the DC I know of at BP, to be honest, aren't doing facilitating A levels in order for me to question them constructively! Such DC have, to date, gone to PS, but, back to my OP, is PS changing in such a way that it would now be even less of a good idea for DS?

20-22 is very big for A'level classes, which are smaller than secondary.
10-15 is pretty normal.

Interesting, I wouldn't have known that! That maybe further supports my feel which is that PSC need only 'allow' high performing, self-motivated, no-issue DC on its facilitating A level courses thus can successfully teach classes of 20-22.

I recall the late, great Xenia mentioning that her DD's school/s, the big north London day school/s, had classes of 22-25, in ££ schools because all the DDs were of an identical, stellar ability so all could happily keep up. This may not be my DS!