Can we have a heated debate about ability setting in schools?

[pinksquidgy]

New education minister Nicky Morgan was rumoured to be considering making setting by ability a compulsory part of getting an 'outstanding' Ofsted classification. Caused a bit of a storm and now looks like she's rowing back.

When I heard this I thought 'I wish she bloody would'.

I know whole-class teaching/mixed groups are better for children who are struggling (for whatever reason) and I do get that that's important.

But I have two very bright DCs (i know, i know) and I cannot tell you how bloody sick I am of them being given things to colour in while the teacher gives most of her time to those who are at the lower end of the attainment range.

I'm guessing this is a result of the target culture - it seems to result in schools desperately scrabbling to get the 'D' student up to a 'C'. Students who were always going to be a B or an A just get left to stew and it's starting to drive me potty. (I do also realise this is partly a function of bad teaching and poor management - but that, unfortunately, is what our local primary is like.)

Don't clever kids matter too? Would it be so wrong to prioritise them just for once - maybe just for core subjects like numeracy and literacy?

My older DC has just gone up to secondary. EVERY single one of the 'clever' kids he started out with in infants (those who were getting similar SATS scores) has gone into the private sector or free schools, by hook or by crook. He is the ONLY one of his academic peers who has gone into a state comprehensive. This is the flipside of schools failing to look after clever kids: their parents simply opt out of the state system altogether - which is no good for anyone, surely?

I'm deeply committed to the ideal of comprehensive education in my heart (and in my wallet tbh) but once, just once, I'd like someone to think about what might work best for the children at the top end of the attainment range.

please don't kill me

I remember helping other pupils in all ability classes in primary school it wasn't just the odd time but on a daily basis. Our teacher would be helping the middle table kids and the top table was then assigned to help the bottom table. I think I did the same maths workbook for 2 years because the teacher didn't really bother with the ones who got things quickly. It was such a relief to go to secondary school and be streamed.

30 years on Ds2 & DD also say this they are regularly asked to help other dcs on a regular basis in their school.

I wish they would set, I twiddled my thumbs throughout a lot of my education and I think this partly explains why I have a lack of self motivation.

Ditto for my dc1, since year 1 has been ahead of the game and is continually told to sit quietly and read a book when he finishes everything first,

I also echo what miss unreasonable says

haklyut the one I was closest too set feeder schools and then by distance thereby requiring a certain salary to be in the catchment, is that the kind of thing you mean?
I guess teaching latin appeals to a certain type of parent too?

Ages ago I remember talking to a teacher who was telling me about some kind of economic theory (in part!) explaining why the UK was going down hill, the gist of which was that we as a country don't put resources into the high achievers but just leave them to bumble along whereas other economies select children showing aptitude in some areas and provide appropriately targeted attention!)

Just a comment about more able children helping less able children, if I had a less able child, this would worry me a lot.

Surely, the children who are struggling, need a trained teacher's support and guidance more than anyone. Instead, they are being fobbed off with someone who isn't even an adult.

In a perfect world, the able child explaining a task or concept to the struggling child would be monitored by a trained to teacher to make sure everything was working well. In practice, I don't believe this happens most of the time.

Over 30 years ago, when I was in primary school, I was told to help struggling classmates from time to time. I loved it. I was bored with nothing to do, and this enabled me to flit around the classroom and chat. My idea of "helping" was to give classmates the answers. Once they had completed the questions/problems they could chat and play with me.

Just because I could diagram a sentence at 9 years old, doesn't mean I had the "big picture," or the maturity to give my classmates what they really needed. The teacher managed to free herself up and keep two children who sucked up a lot of her time for different reasons busy, but the child who was behind didn't get the proper teaching that they needed.

The one complaint I had about my kids primary school was that scant attention was paid to the clever children - it was all focussed on the special needs at the lower academic end. My son was really good at Maths yet frequently bored at primary school - yet no one thought to give him and a few other likeminded kids any extension work.

He thrived at senior school (state comp with setting from day one!) thankfully. But many such children left the state system before the end of primary school - 8 in one term in my daughter's class because of one autistic child who disrupted the whole class.

I haven't read the whole thread (too many pages and too little time), but if you look at the whole cohort of results across the whole country, the results on peer groups and setting are interesting - the best results come from having a 'lower' set, for those who are struggling, but keeping the middle and high attainers together, as the presence of the more able children pulls the middle children up, without negatively affecting the middle attainers.

It's slightly counter-intuitive, but it's what the results show statistically. I'm sure people will have lots of ancedotal evidence that other ways work better, but in making policy, it's often the whole picture that is the key bit of evidence.

Both my son and my step son got identical sats scores to your son. They have both moved into secondary school this year, dss to a grammar and ds1 to a business academy.

They certainly are not the cleverest children in their respective schools, and although dss' primary school was outstanding, ds1's was merely satisfactory.

Most secondary schools do set, they have to. The gap between the high achievers and the lower achievers widens with every year they grow, it's not like in primary school where the lower achievers are on four letter spellings and the higher achievers are on six letter spellings. Higher maths gcse is nothing at all like the lower maths gcse, it may as well be a different subject.

Some kids hit secondary school still learning basic spellings. Some hit secondary school able to plan and write an essay.

I chose a career to enable me to pay school fees. Thus I could ensure the children from age 5 were in very very selective schools with other bright children and so achieve what I wanted. I recommend that process to other women. It works really well for the bright even at age 5.

That's good. We chose careers that enabled us to spend lots of time with our children, rather than paying someone else minimum wage to do it for us.

Nah no thanks Green.

No need for private education here.My kids seem to be thrashing their privately educated friends.

Would love to know these mythical careers that pay enough to fund private education x3. Seems to be so many of them and so it's so easy to get 1 I'm amazed there are any state schools at all.

Or in green's case, IIRC, private fees times considerably more than 3.

seagulls your kids are under 11 no ? I think you're a little previous to be counting your chickens on the academic/career front.

green has adult children 'in the bag' safe,happy and thriving through school, university , in a successful career and a long term relationship!

When we get to that point we can, I think, talk about 'thrashing' if that's the sort of thing you like to do!

I want to echo lilybolero. Counter-intuitive as it is, research shows that able students do very very well when working with mid ability students. I'm a secondary science teacher in a grammar school, and while we set the kids who want to do double award science at GCSE, the best results are always from the separate science groups, who are mixed ability (though admittedly in our case this means ranging A - C, not A - G). Our A level students have targets ranging A - D, are not settled or streamed in any way, and consistently achieve excellent grades because they actively try to learn and behaviour is never an issue in class.

IME differentiating isn't actually that hard, it just takes more time planning and preparing. While the league tables want to know how many got at least a C, my teaching is assessed based on value added (how many kids made better than expected progress). This is how our senior management judge our teaching, and OFSTED always ask for that data when they come in. Even with all kids getting minimum Cs in all subjects a school would not (and should not) get rated outstanding if the value added is low.

I think I know enough about kids!education and my own kids to know that they're going to be just fine and private schools very much unneeded thanks.

Dp and I went to utterly shite comps and haven't done so bad either.

And there are plenty of careers that pay well.

My DH and I both have one as do lots and lots of people!

And they allow you to spend plenty of time with your kids . green breast fed give kids...faints,

Oh do share.

Given that only a tiny percentage of the population can afford private(and the numbers are shrinking going by my friends who pay fees and worry about closures) I'd love to see this long accessible career list.

Mumzy, I find it puzzling that each table in the classroom you observed had the exact same number of children in it. Was it the case that by coincidence each category of children needing specific attention from the teacher was comprised of exactly the same number of children?

What I am suggesting is that there are possibly many classrooms where group composition is determined by the configurations allowed by space, availability of tables and other physical properties of the classroom, and not by the demands posed by the fact that students of mixed ability coexist in the same room.

Not only were my DCs in a school that didn't set, it had no formal G&T designation for students or formal accommodation for them in the classroom or after school. This is not to say that those DCs who would have fallen into this category in schools elsewhere were not challenged. The challenge occurred on an individual level, and as far as I am concerned this is completely appropriate because each child is basically an individual, and not a member of one of the five or six categories/levels that might be possible in any given room depending on dimensions of desks or the room itself.

Out of the people I know...

Actuary,

Lawyer
Accountant
Banker
Economist
Interior designer
Insurance broker
It consultant
Writer
Producer
Property developer
Doctor
Director
Editor
CEO
Finance director
Actor
Agent

Not into stats thanks so no use here.

I'm guessing Green thinks bring able to buy your own island is crucial too.

Dp is an IT consultant,believe you me private x3 for 14 years wouldn't be an option even if I saw anything on that list that bar writing(and we all know how that guarantees a huge income) wouldn't put me to sleep.

Also I know people who do 7 out of those careers on that list and they couldn't afford private either,not that they're that bothered.

Think you live in a parallel universe.

Thinking of people I know who could probably afford 5 lots of private school fees simultaneously.
I Actor
I Judge
1 managing director of a printing company
3 accountants
2 lawyers.
That's 9 people- oh, 10. I forgot 1 inherited wealth.

And I know a lot of people!

The lawyers I know get buggar all.

Most of the ones I know do too. These two....don't.

We know some accounts too not exactly rolling in it.The property developer I know is property rich but cash poor and as for the interior designer don't even go there.