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Education

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Gove out??? Chief whip..

59 replies

stillenacht1 · 15/07/2014 09:22

Is he out??am actually shaking!!!Grin

OP posts:
Tansie · 15/07/2014 21:51

My Q: "whilst the DC of the wealthy and elite sailed undisturbed onwards with their private school IGCSEs into the Russell Group unis"

Q: "Both my Dcs were 100% state educated and went to Russell Group unis and achieved science degrees at Masters level."

So, you are the parent of high academic achieving DC; the type of parent who has maybe never had to consider the damage done to a less-able DC being endlessly academically tested and measured- and found wanting from the age of 7, being told that the vocational or practical subjects they maybe were good at are considered educational dross; who might leave school with a few low grade GCSEs rather than an useful BTec or 2.

"Gove IMO was loved by many parents for having the audacity to challenge the status quo and poor standards in schools"

I personally know of no parent at all who applauds Gove. I know plenty of people who do but who either do not have DC in the education system or who also recall a non-existent halcyon era of glorious state education; folks who cry 'bring back grammar schools!' But never 'bring back Secondary Moderns', etc.

And let's face it, the standards Saint Gove dragged up can't have been that bad if your DC have Masters degrees from Russell Group unis, can they? Wink

Have they considered going into teaching...?

Ziggystarduster · 15/07/2014 22:06

My DCs went to uni despite Gove's improvements- they were pre- Gove educated.

I know all too well about children with lower ability. I used to teach them. I gave up teaching due to falling standards.

I would have applauded the introduction of vocational courses instead of a clutch of low grade GCSEs- that is something Gove tried to introduce.

topbanana1 · 15/07/2014 22:22

Well said Tansie.

I don't know any parents who like Gove or approve of any of his changes. I have a dc that will be in the 'guinea pig' year for the new exams, and we certainly don't welcome all this pointless messing, I can assure you.

I am a teacher and don't know a single member of the teaching profession with a good word for his reforms, which should tell you something.

Plus I know a number of people from his (ex) dept - and he is universally loathed there

Lots of very happy parents/teachers/civil servants today! My dh phoned me up to tell me Gove had gone, in jubilation!

Ziggystarduster · 16/07/2014 08:37

Maybe because of the anti-Gove crowd on MN anyone who thinks he did ok doesn't post - much?

I know teachers and parents in RL who think his moves to close the gap between the poor disadvantaged pupils and the rest were a good thing all round.

rabbitstew · 16/07/2014 11:54

I thought pupil premium funding was a Lib Dem idea? (One of their few good ones).

I'm wondering what it is that Gove is supposed to have done, beyond making teaching of phonics compulsory, to close the gap, Ziggystarduster? I don't think Free Schools close the gap, I don't think Academies will close the gap (they are just a different way of doing things which will sometimes work out and sometimes not, and is dependent on whether the actual leadership in the relevant schools is any good - and ambitious academy and free school heads aren't going to hang around in any one school for very long, to see if they can sustain any changes they actually make, ime... a bit like Education Secretaries Grin...). Changing the exam system and national curriculum: definitely no evidence whatsoever this will improve anything, given that at the moment, it's all just a mass of confusion and rush and stress... Changing ways of getting into teaching: again, no real evidence of how successful this will be, either... Spending huge amounts of money on academising schools and opening free schools, at the expense of improving all schools, because it all comes out of the overall education budget... Well, I definitely fail to see how that is an improvement, to spend so much money on this at a time when money is short...

grovel · 16/07/2014 13:39

Some would argue (this is a cut and paste) that:

• He's cut the number of children being taught in failing schools by 250,000
• He's enabled more than half of England's state secondary schools to become academies, freeing them from the dead hand of local authority control
• He's opened 174 free schools (so far), with 75 per cent of the first wave being ranked "good" or "outstanding" by Ofsted
• He's rewritten the national curriculum, with more rigorous, intellectually challenging programmes of study being introduced in English, Maths, Science, Languages, Computing, Geography and History
• He's raised standards in GCSEs and A-levels, stripping out meaningless BTEC "equivalents" in subjects like Travel and Tourism, removing coursework and ensuring all pupils are assessed on their performance in end-of-course exams
• He's made it easier for head teachers to enforce discipline, giving them the power to permanently exclude children without the risk that they'll be reinstated by local authorities
• He's weakened the grip of Left-wing academics on the teacher training process, making it possible for outstanding schools to train teachers themselves
• He's made the league tables more transparent, forcing schools and local authorities to make much more information public so parents can make better informed decisions of where to send their children
• He's introduced new accountability measures that will make it harder for under-performing schools to "game" the league tables

I'm not really in a position to comment on many of these. Just thought I'd give the naysayers some points to debate.

rabbitstew · 16/07/2014 14:15

I'm sure he's AIMED to do all that, and he's certainly changed a lot, I just refute the claim he's proven any of it has been successful. There's no knowing what will happen with the new curriculum, or even which academy schools will follow it, or how much of it they will follow, or how schools will continue to assess children's progress, or what extra externally marked exams will now have to be introduced to check up on what schools are up to. There's no knowing how schools will choose to train their teachers, or whether they will do a better job of it than the ways it has been done in the past. To me, it's all spin - in fact, it's all a confusing whirl or tearing up paper, starting again, changing things for the sake of change, creating more paperwork, changing more things, until it's impossible to see whether there was ever a clear strategy, or just a desire to get rid of everything that went before.

AuntieStella · 16/07/2014 14:32

Point of detail: the championing of phonics approach to reading wasn't a Goveism, nor was the provision of additional funds a Coalition initiative.

Here's Balls on it, from The Guardian in 2009

rabbitstew · 16/07/2014 14:39

Oh yes, another "achievement" of Gove's: to waste all the money spent on the Rose review and preparations made to implement it, by dismissing it, except for its recommendations on phonics.

rabbitstew · 16/07/2014 14:43

Actually, no, I think I'm thinking of something else, there!...

rabbitstew · 16/07/2014 14:44

No, I was thinking of that...

Justtoobad · 16/07/2014 17:15

I agree Rabbitstew.

BoneyBackJefferson · 16/07/2014 17:56

Grovel

Most of what you have posted where either started before gove came in, there is no evidence to support it. or in one case the dfe where taken to court over it.

nlondondad · 16/07/2014 19:20

@grovel

You wrote

"• He's enabled more than half of England's state secondary schools to become academies, freeing them from the dead hand of local authority control"

err what "dead hand" exactly?

Have a look at this posting on the Local Schools Network

www.localschoolsnetwork.org.uk/2013/01/most-things-an-academy-can-do-a-maintained-school-can-also-do-says-academies-commission/

CharlesRyder · 16/07/2014 20:16

• He's cut the number of children being taught in failing schools by 250,000
In how many cases is it just that the failing school was forced into Academy status and therefore technically became a 'new' school with 12-18 months grace before being Ofsteded again?

• He's enabled more than half of England's state secondary schools to become academies, freeing them from the dead hand of local authority control
Why are the LAs that bad??

• He's opened 174 free schools (so far), with 75 per cent of the first wave being ranked "good" or "outstanding" by Ofsted
Weren't there only about 20 in the first wave. 1 in 4 not being up to it is not so great is it?

• He's rewritten the national curriculum, with more rigorous, intellectually challenging programmes of study being introduced in English, Maths, Science, Languages, Computing, Geography and History
But it's shit.

• He's raised standards in GCSEs and A-levels, stripping out meaningless BTEC "equivalents" in subjects like Travel and Tourism, removing coursework and ensuring all pupils are assessed on their performance in end-of-course exams
He has no recognition of the fact that children learn in different ways and 'rigorous' terminally tested exams just aren't the way to bring the best out of every student. That is not a lack of ambition on their behalf, in fact the opposite. Find every child a path they can succeed on you twat.

• He's made it easier for head teachers to enforce discipline, giving them the power to permanently exclude children without the risk that they'll be reinstated by local authorities
On what planet is excluding children from education good? Where is all the money being poured into alternative provision if schools can exclude? Oh, but hang on, all the qualifications they could do in an alternative setting have been 'stripped out'.

• He's weakened the grip of Left-wing academics on the teacher training process, making it possible for outstanding schools to train teachers themselves
No, any old school can have trainee teachers. Mine had 4 this year and is RI. By 'left-wing' does he mean institutions where young teachers are encouraged to think for themselves?

• He's made the league tables more transparent, forcing schools and local authorities to make much more information public so parents can make better informed decisions of where to send their children
But there is no choice in many areas due to place pressure- what is he doing about that? Don't pull out the Free School card because they are NOT necessarily where the shortages are.

• He's introduced new accountability measures that will make it harder for under-performing schools to "game" the league tables
Actually I think the highest performing schools are just as guilty of gaming. They wouldn't have to if it wasn't for the culture of Gove fear.

Tansie · 17/07/2014 08:49

Well said, CharlesRyder.

As for under-performing schools gaming the league tables, my DSs very highly (academically!) performing school, they're masters of it. Yes, it is a 'good school', but they absolutely know what they're doing- or maybe, did know when it was all a lot more cut and dried. Now every level of intake is measured separately (i.e. How well did the D grade entrants do? The B graders? etc) it remains to be seen. However, we have witnessed around where I live really mediocre schools located in 'problem areas', with shall we say 'a difficult intake', poor discipline, high levels of truancy, rapid staff turnover and very 'average' outcomes suddenly being awarded 'good' and 'outstanding' OFSTEDs as they've learned how to 'game'; whereas others in leafy MC areas with dream intakes and excellent results are being down-graded because they're just plain 'good school' and can find no way through the current OFSTED morass to show excellence seeing as if they take on A graders and send out A graders, for example, no 'value adding' can be demonstrated, can it?

But locally everyone knows which school they want their DC to attend! Even though unless you're in catchment, there is no 'choice'.

AmberTheCat · 17/07/2014 09:02

Tansie, do schools with difficult intakes who help those children achieve average outcomes not deserve credit? I agree that we need to find ways in the system for schools with high achieving intakes to demonstrate the value they add, but let's not denigrate schools who take seriously disadvantaged children and enable them to make excellent progress.

Tansie · 17/07/2014 09:13

Amber- a school that 'take(s) seriously disadvantaged children and enable(s) them to make excellent progress' already would get a good OFSTED rating. In fact, it's easier for such a school to gety an 'Excellent' now that it is for a school like the one my DC go to which has been taking in 'MC' DC and turning out swathes of As and As for years. The schools I'm* describing take a difficult cohort and turn them out with, at best, a meagre clutch of low grade GCSEs (no BTecs etc any more as they, apparently, 'don't count'). No 'excellent progress' there, I can assure you. But a shiny, new, 'good' if not 'outstanding' OFSTED.

Tanith · 18/07/2014 09:50

Academies weren't really an original Gove idea either.
They were a rehashed policy from the last Conservative government in the 80s that allowed schools to "opt out" of local authority.

Gove just fine tuned it a bit Hmm

rabbitstew · 18/07/2014 11:09

He didn't "fine tune" it, he started a mass programme to get all schools to become academies eventually, backed by some Tory councils which have explicitly stated this is their aim (and consequently made most of their staff redundant, on the basis they only really need to offer advice to schools on how to become academies, now that they don't want to be bothered with doing much else for the schools under their remit...).

Tanith · 18/07/2014 13:11

The fact remains that it was not Gove's idea in the first place.

rabbitstew · 18/07/2014 13:46

I thought it was Gove's idea to spread academisation to Good and Outstanding schools.

nlondondad · 18/07/2014 17:24

being able to "opt out" of local authority "control" was a Conservative policy which predated, by a number of years the idea of Academies.

The crucial difference between that policy and the current government policy regarding acadimisation is that to opt out required the Governing Body to resolve that it was something they were in favour of and then hold a secret ballot of parents to approve the move. Clearly if the Secretary of State were not allowed to make an Academy order under the 2010 Act without the approval of parents as expressed by a secret ballot, the whole debate would look rather different!

rabbitstew · 18/07/2014 21:41

Whoever's idea it was to try to get all schools to become academies, I think it was an awful one and Gove put his name very strongly behind it, so I'm happy to give him "credit" for it. Grin

prh47bridge · 18/07/2014 23:49

Academies first appeared under Margaret Thatcher as City Technology Colleges. The programme was stopped when Blair came to power then, after a few years, restarted in the face of strong evidence from other countries that giving schools greater autonomy led to improved results. The policy proceeded slowly partly due to internal opposition within the Labour party. Gove put rockets on the policy believing that the results seen in other countries would be duplicated here.

In how many cases is it just that the failing school was forced into Academy status and therefore technically became a 'new' school with 12-18 months grace before being Ofsteded again

None. This is nothing to do with Ofsted. The measure used here is secondary schools failing to achieve the floor target (at least 40% of pupils achieving 5 GCSEs at grades A*-C including English and maths and also meeting targets for the level of progress made by children from 11 to 16). The floor target has been raised so that it is tougher to achieve but the number of schools failing to achieve the floor target has fallen. If the current floor target had been in place in 2010 407 secondary schools would have failed to meet the target. Only 154 secondary schools failed last year.

Why are the LAs that bad??

A small number of LAs are seriously bad with a significant number of schools consistently falling below the floor standard. Research carried out by the last government blamed these LAs for failing to take effective action to improve these schools. Also, as I've already noted, there is now extensive evidence from a number of countries that removing schools from LA control and giving them greater autonomy leads to improved results. That does not necessarily mean the same outcome will be achieved here, of course.

Weren't there only about 20 in the first wave. 1 in 4 not being up to it is not so great is it?

There were 24 free schools in the first wave. When inspected 4 were rated outstanding, 14 were good, 5 required improvement and 1 was inadequate. This is a little better than other types of school being inspected at the same time but broadly in line with long term averages.

But it's shit.

Matter of opinion. For those subjects with which I am familiar I certainly think the curriculum has become more rigorous. I know that some teachers think this is a bad thing.

He has no recognition of the fact that children learn in different ways and 'rigorous' terminally tested exams just aren't the way to bring the best out of every student. That is not a lack of ambition on their behalf, in fact the opposite. Find every child a path they can succeed on you twat.

The problem with coursework is that it is too open to manipulation. Judging from his speeches he would agree with you that we should find every child a path they can succeed on. He would not, however, agree with the "all must win prizes" approach that says we have to find a way to give every child a decent maths GCSE even if they can't do maths at all.

On what planet is excluding children from education good? Where is all the money being poured into alternative provision if schools can exclude? Oh, but hang on, all the qualifications they could do in an alternative setting have been 'stripped out'.

Children are excluded from particular schools, not from education completely. The LA is required to find another setting for children excluded from school. The problem with the previous approach was that discipline in some schools was being undermined by seriously disruptive children being reinstated after the school had excluded them. There are problems with the current approach too, in particular the fact that it can lead to a stand off between the appeal panel and the governors. Schools have been able to exclude for a long time. The total number of permanent exclusions has edged up slightly but is well below the levels seen 10-15 years ago. The number of fixed period exclusions continues to fall. So schools aren't making use of this to exclude large numbers of pupils. Nonetheless, many head teachers now feel they are more in control of discipline.

No, any old school can have trainee teachers. Mine had 4 this year and is RI. By 'left-wing' does he mean institutions where young teachers are encouraged to think for themselves?

No, he means institutions that push the "all must have prizes" approach, who think schools should not teach spelling and who promote the approaches to teaching that have seen the UK sliding down international league tables.

But there is no choice in many areas due to place pressure- what is he doing about that? Don't pull out the Free School card because they are NOT necessarily where the shortages are.

It is true that free schools are not necessarily where the shortages are but many have opened in areas where there is a shortage of places. Others have opened where there is a shortage of places at good schools. But yes, we are some way off having genuine choice in many areas.

Actually I think the highest performing schools are just as guilty of gaming. They wouldn't have to if it wasn't for the culture of Gove fear.

Gaming the league tables started long before Gove. He has made it harder for schools to do this by making it easier for parents to spot schools boosting results by choosing soft options.