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Education

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Discipline in schools

44 replies

lemonysnickett · 24/08/2006 22:03

When did things go wrong with the school system. Not so long ago everything seemed a lot simpler. The stress of the whole process did not exist.Tthe local slchool was good enough for most and children (with supportive parents) generally did well.
Now the talk seems lto be about having a good state school locally, lmoving and paying over the odds for property in certain catchment areas....why and when did it come to this.
I think the main factor has been the deterioration in standards at state schools..mainly down to lack of discipline..poor language and disruptive behaviour in schools. This is a result of lack of discipline in the homes of some pupils. I am a teacher and have done a lot of supply teaching. I would consider myself to be quite strict and have high expectations in the classroom.I have a low tolerance of bad and disruptive behaviour and refuse to allow this behaviour stop me teaching those children that are keen and eager to learn. Classroom rescouces in state schools are not the problem ..nor are class sizes. The main problem is behaviour. does anyone have any views on this..i would be interested to hear them.

OP posts:
MoreTeaAnyone · 24/08/2006 22:06

Too many children are 'aware of their rights'. Obviously if something wrogn is happening then this is good. HOwever children tend to take things too far and leave teachers with very little options. Also some parents couldn't give a monkey's chuff about teachers and disciplining their children if they misbahave to school. No back up results in more problems.

rarrie · 24/08/2006 22:53

Agree with MTA - I think parents don;t back up the school anymore. When I was a kid, if we got in trouble at school, I knew I'd get in extra trouble at home because of it. Now, If I set a detention, half the time I get a letter back from mum or dad saying Johnny can't do DT because of XYZ...

Then there can be the lack of support from senior management within the school. I've worked in great schools where they do support the teacher and really deal with problem kids, but then I've also taught in schools where the classroom teacher is left to get on with it, with very little support from SMT.

Finally, there is also the real lack of authority these days. I mean, as a classroom teacher the worst punishment you can give is a DT. So what? In my last school, even that had to be at lunchtimes due to busses etc - well what kind of deterrent is that?

Simply, I find that as a teacher I rely on having the kids on side to teach and having the kids like me because apart from that I do have very little authority!

Blandmum · 25/08/2006 08:53

agree. And not only will a parent refuse to let little A do the DT because if XYZ, they will refuse to do it because little A never tells a lie! My Arse!

Child and parens now know their rights but wouldn't know what a responsibility was if it bit them on the backside.

A collegue of mine calculated that an average lesson costs round £120 in a secondary school. So if one little cherub wrecks the lesson, thatis what is lost in terms of financial cost!

UCM · 26/08/2006 07:21

This is interesting here lots of arguments for & against.

kittywits · 26/08/2006 08:04

Teacher's have no powers to discipline any more and children have no respect for them. As a teacher, secondary in particular, what are you supposed to do when you can't even TOUCH a child let alone give them a slap. The kids know this and they can do what they want. This ridiculous situation has to be readdressed. Bring back corperal punnishment, because there wern't these problems when that was around.

UCM · 26/08/2006 08:14

To an extent I agree with corporal punishment in school. Children are supposed to learn skills that will last them a lifetime and if they don't, it does them no good. Also if children are not disciplined or set boundaries at home then at least they will be at school where they spend a significant amount of time. At school if you don't behave - you get punished, so behave!

kittywits · 26/08/2006 11:37

Trouble is now if at school you don't behave you get a smiley face put on your sticker chart.

MoreTeaAnyone · 26/08/2006 11:42

As a manager of a school I would totally disagree with corp. punish. in a school.

Parents already 'dislike' teacher telling them or their kids what to do, can you imagine what would happen if we were to go around hitting them?

I'm not interested in another debate about whether hitting children is good or bad.

hulababy · 26/08/2006 11:46

I left teaching, after 9 years, pretty much because of discipline in school, and no support from management when pupils became out of control.

Agree whole heartedly that whilst (some) children and parents know and quote their rights, their responsibilities seem to have been way laid.

I don't agree with corpral punishment in schools.

But I do think something drastic needs to happen in our schools.

harpsichordcarrier · 26/08/2006 11:47

does anyone actually remember what it was like when corporal punishment was used in schools? there were a few teachers who used it very liberally, and they were the teachers who ruled by fear. some of them were downright sadists.
also, the same boys used to get beaten again and again. the same names appeared in the punishment book over and over. not sure what the deterrent effect was.
I certainly wouldn't be keen for my girls to be caned. would you? really?
I am not even going to start on the effect on burgeoning sexuality. but take a look in any phone box and see if you still think it is a good idea

MoreTeaAnyone · 26/08/2006 11:51

I totally agree. When I was in class the one thing that really irriated was the lack of management support in relation to discipline.

I try really hard now to make sure that I listen to staff and try to back them up. WIthout everyone in a school saying and doing the same thing the kids don't give a f**k.

The other thing that got on my nerves was the sweeping statement that would come out of a HT's mouth at assembly "If anyone does this, then you'll be excluded from school." OK it got the shock value for the good kids but the others knew that they'd never be out cause the'd been there, done that, got many T-shirts and never been out of school.

TenaLady · 26/08/2006 11:54

I blame the 70's approach of all casual and relaxed teaching. I saw it quickly detiorate then in secondary school.

At primary school the approach was more pomp and ceremony. Mr G had is slipper which he kept in his cupboard should anyone feel like stepping out of line and our English teacher used to roll his R's and pronounce his words correctly, well they all did really. They all dressed immaculately albeit in brown and beige but always smart.

They let the kids try to be adults too quickly when we hit the 70's and the kids just cant do it. Oh they think they can but obviously they cant.

TenaLady · 26/08/2006 11:56

We are now living with the 70's generations of children who now believe there kids have rights and therefore no back up for the school.

I for one would not want to go into teaching it would be such a disappointing unrewarding job. There are always the exceptions of course but I bet there arent many.

kittywits · 26/08/2006 12:03

If the same boys always got the cane then it was because they were naughty, frequently, I assume. It's their own fault. They have choice. Or perhaps it wqas someone else's fault entirley that they did this. I don't think so.
peopletoday generally don't think they ahve to take responsibility for their actions. If they get in ant sort of trouble they expect someone else to bail them out. If you mess up take a punnishment, stop blaming everyone else.
The only reason parents would be up in arms today is because that is what they have been shown to be right. Can you imagine parents during the 50's say being up in arms?! If their kids were reprmanded then they would totally agree with that. Too much navel gazing today, not enough action.

MadamePlatypus · 26/08/2006 12:17

I agree with harpsi - I don't think corporal punishment worked particularly well. The same queue of boys were always outside the headmaster's office waiting for the slipper at my primary school. If the point of discipline is to make it easier for teachers to teach and change behaviour patterns, it clearly wasn't working. Meanwhile, were girls ever given corporal punishment?

I think there are much better methods of improving behaviour. The problem is that they are more difficult to implement, take time and must be supported at home.

SenoraPostrophe · 26/08/2006 12:19

just because someone has some control over a chain of events doesn't make it OK, kittywits. the fact that some boys used to be caned a lot does show that it doesn't work though so what's the point?

agree that the biggest difference is the parents, but also many schools declined very quickly immediately after the tories brought in the policy of "parental choice" in the first place: all that did was concentrate the kids whose parents don't give a shit in the same schools and lots of slightly-below-average schools became quite rough schools very quickly. it was a stupid policy, but difficult to turn the clock back now.

UnquietDad · 26/08/2006 12:21

We had the cane at my primary school. The fear of it was more evident than its actual use. But yes, if anybody go it then it tended to be the same boys, and they'd show the marks like a brand of pride in the playground, surrounded by awestruck admirers. I do think there is a huge problem with discipline - and especially as noted below, management not backing up teachers' decisions on discipline - but on balance I wouldn't want to see a return to the cane.

kittywits · 26/08/2006 12:28

The chances are very high that if they weren't caned then their behaviour would have been even worse. we see that borne out today. i don't know whether we should bring back corperal punnishment or not. What I want to see is a system where the teachers have the power to control bad behaviour I want help given to poor children whose eduction is damaged by the t*sers who mess around and and know NOTHING will be done. Infact aren't they taken on very expensive days out because they are obviously deprived or else they wouldn't be such morons? I'm sick to death of these people not only getting off scot free but often being rewarded for their behaviour.

UCM · 26/08/2006 12:33

We had the cane/slipper/ruler at my school. If someone needed caning more than twice I think IIRC they were expelled. I remember getting the ruler across my hand for being a little cow and it hurt. I didn't do whatever it was I got it for (can't remember now) again because I never got it again and wasn't expelled.

Corporal punishment is a short sharp shock. Its ok to say there are other methods but as someone mentioned they take time and parental support which isn't always there. If my DS needed to be caned at school because he had done something wrong I would not have a problem with that. It's no good sending him home for me to discipline hours after the incident, as the moment is gone. Time spent teaching children how to behave in a reasonable manner is not what teachers are paid for. The children should know this already.

What is happening today is not working and I am sure that children in my school were not as badly behaved in class as some are today.

harpsichordcarrier · 26/08/2006 12:36

bloody hell UCM are you serious that you would want your child to be caned?!?! have you any idea of the bruising it leaves. it is excruciatingly painful and sometimes causes permanent damage.
god what a vile thought.
no, I would not want an adult inflicting a beating with a stick to leave bruises on my child. the very thought makes me feel ill. it's revolting and uncivilised.

Saturn74 · 26/08/2006 12:36

I think it is unfortunate if children with behavioural problems are all lumped together, and classed as coming from homes where discipline is not a priority, or that these children behave as they do because they are aware of their human rights, or that their parents simply expect the school to put up with their children whilst they are on the school premises. My youngest DS had severe behavioural problems in his first year at school. As a family we have strong views on manners, and we expect appropriate behaviour from our children. To hear that our DS2 repeatedly attempted to leave the school premises, whether by climbing over the wall, trying to push past staff members or attempting to hide from staff was absolutely devastating to us. We were concerned about our son, but also concerned about the effect that his behaviour had on the other pupils. My DS and I were totally supportive of any ideas that the school wished to implement to enable him to cope with the school routines and feel confident in his surroundings. We were dismayed to find that the school quickly ran out of ideas however. It transpired that our son had severe food allergies, coupled with profound dyslexia. None of the medical staff involved with our son ever thought that food allergies were a possibility. None of the school staff, LEA, behaviour support teachers etc ever thought that dyslexia was a possibility. The combination of the two issues made our son a very scared, angry and unhappy little boy. My DH and I were made to feel responsible for his behaviour when he was in school, although I was not allowed in the class to observe him in order to help with any strategies. The village we lived in behaved in a way that has left me shocked to this day - they gossiped about our son, and some of the stories that were made up about him were astounding. I dreaded waiting at the school gate, as Mothers would hand out party invitations to every child except my son. One even told him that he was not allowed to play with her son as he was a "naughty, nasty child, and your Mummy should smack you bottom" - my son was four years old at the time. I was stunned by the way a group of supposedly intelligent people were happy to bitch and gossip about a four year old child, and make up stories that made him sound like the spawn of the devil! Anyway, the basis of what I wanted to say was that poor behaviour sometimes (NOT always, but sometimes) is a symptom of a child who is struggling. In our case, our son was struggling though a lack of support for his specific learning difficulty - dyslexia. The state school system does not provide an appropriate education for dyslexic children. A learning environment that teaches for tests, has little or no time for children to ask questions, and insists on Phonics or nothing as a way of teaching the basics of literacy, is not an appropriate environment for children with literacy difficulties IMO. My son is now on a restricted diet, and is a happy, calm, friendly and biddable child. As a result, the LEA took away his 10 hours a week with a classroom assistant, because he now sits quietly. Does this help his dyslexia though? I just wanted to say that before assuming that disruptive or badly behaved children are little thugs that need corporal punishment, please take a moment to think that they may be a child who is stuck in an environment that they cannot cope with for over 30 hours a week - I don't know many adults that would be able to handle that. Corporal punishment would not have sorted my son's difficulties. It might have made him sit still and be more quiet - is that all we want for a school child though? This issue is much more complex than getting all the pupils to shut up, keep still and listen.

UCM · 26/08/2006 12:40

If my son behaved, he wouldn't be caned is what I am trying to get at here. I truly believe it is a huge deterrent. But, no, I don't have a problem with it if he is disrupting his & others education, which to me is hugely important.

UCM · 26/08/2006 12:41

Oh and I am talking secondary school here, NOT infants & juniors as I think that by the time they arrive at Sec school, they should have learned by then how to behave.

MadamePlatypus · 26/08/2006 12:50

Presumably discipline isn't a problem in all schools? What makes these schools different? Corporal punishment is never going to be reintroduced so discussing it is a bit academic discussing it.

hulababy · 26/08/2006 13:02

I worked at one very good school and one failing school.

The good one - l
ots of parental support,
more money coming into the school (sponsors, charities, parents - middle class area),
over subscribed so children knew there was always someone waiting to take their place,
children had been expelled if necessary,
lots of long term teachers and low staff turnover,
strict uniform which was adhered to,
the smaller rules were dealt with when broken (meaning less likely to move onto the bigger rules)
strong management and good support for staff from the top,
pupils had aspirations and were heading somewhere

Failing school
low parental support (3 parents turned up to Y9 - options year - parent's evening out of my 3 30+ classses for example)
lower income area - so less money coming into school from outside support
Pupils had very little aspirations - they didn't have plans for university, jobs, and were happy to live in same area and work with their dad/uncle, or leave and have children...Not saying this is always bad but for so many to have no aspirations was very alien to me after the last school)
school did have a strict uniiform on paper but was often not worn properly and no one picked up on it
smaller rules when broken were often ignored, meaning pupils moved onto the bigger ones
little support from the top when things went awry in class (eg I was physically assaulted when 7m pregnant by a 13yo, he also smashed 2 windows, I asked him to quieten down and work politely(!), he got 2 days out of school, was in my next lesson, no apology, npo parents in)
no LSA or TA support in classes with SN children, or classes with behavioural problems
basically head didn't see the problems that were there and had hea din sand!