Church schools - how can they get away with it?

[CountessDracula]

Am I right in thinking that they are state funded?

How come they can pick and choose when others can't? Isn't it essentially exclusion on the basis of religion, isn't that BAD in the current climate?

St George Marple - totally roaring!!!! I'd like mine sugared please!!

CD the church is a bit fecked wealth-wise

at least the Anglicans are

why do you think we hold so many damn fetes?

Ice cream, drinks (mind the step there madam, shall I shine my torch) Popcorn!

I used to teach in a catholic school and probably 30% of the kids came from catholic families, of which about 15% were actually practising catholics.

The rest of the kids were either Cof E or of no religious background. Most of the parents chose to send their kids there because the classes were small (17-20 kids max, as opposed to 30-33 in the other schools in the town). Priority was given to (practising) catholics but if it hadn't taken non-catholics then it wouldn't have stayed open.

School funding is mainly based on pupil numbers so it wouldn't have been in their interest to exclude non-catholics.

Although the curriculum was slightly more heavily weighted towards RE and we had mass 3 times a term, as a non catholic, I don't think my classes got any more of a 'religious' education than they would have done in a non-catholic school.

The other point I was going to make, is that of 7 teachers and the head, only the head was a practising catholic, the rest were either Cof E or fairly agnostic/apathetic. There just aren't enough practising catholics around here to sustain a purely catholic school.

TBH, apart from the presence of a few religious icons, I didn't really find the whole experience of working there much different to jobs I'd had in non-religious schools. I don't really have any strong feelings either way as to the rights or wrongs of the state funding religious schools. At the end of the day, central government dictates pretty much what LEA funded schools have to teach, right down to lesson timings and content and all schools, religious or not have to abide by it or they have OFSTED to answer to.

There are four primary schools within walking distance of my house. One is catholic, 2 C of E and one a normal state primary. Having read the Ofstead reports, the normal state primary actually does as well, if not better than the church schools, so I will have no problem sending DS there (even though it isn't the nearest school). I would have a problem if he wasn't able to get a place there and I would have to drive him to the next state primary. I expect he could get into one of the church schools - I don't think they are oversubscribed, but why should the church have anything to do with his education? The reason that there are so many church schools is obviously that the three local churches were responsible for the setting up of the three church schools. However, given that apparently more people go to Ikea on a Sunday than go to church, and that most of the funding for these schools now comes from taxes, I do think that there is now over provision of faith education at primary level in many areas. As far as I can see about half the primary schools in our borough are faith schools. I think that Rowan Williams said recently that C of E schools should not be able to pick pupils on the basis of religion, however, given that one of the local churches is a member of 'Forward in Faith' I doubt that they pay much attention to him.

anyway I'm doing a Sherlock

dh is in bed and the kids are on some kind of early rising kick

night all

State money + building in a particular place = state school in that particular place

State money + a bit of church money + building in a particular place = state school in that particular place that my child now can't go to

Church money + building in a particular place = religious school in that particular place that my child also can't go to, quite reasonably, BUT the state money is now elsewhere locally, funding a local alternative that is open to my child (or more places in the next nearest state school that would have room for my child), so my child isn't as negatively affected by that. Not only that but the fact that the religious school is no longer state funded and therefore free means that more religious children stay in the mainstream schools and get the same church-provided religious education outside school hours that they would have got from a religious school, so the local society is less segregated.

By the way, where I live the C of E ones, not just RC, prioritise religious background too.

Incidentally, I don't get to choose a state-funded school for my child that focuses mainly on e.g. a specific combination of debating, logic and hillwalking for the non-curriculum stuff - so this choice thing is a bit of a joke really isn't it?

CD is just getting twitchy because ds is finally (aged nearly 3) getting baptised soon.

and because her local catholic church school is very very good and very very close.

CD i reckon you'll get her in anyway.

i f-ing hate the church school thing. we have a vicar that won't speak to anyone that turns up with an under five year old as 'they are only coming for the school'.

hence my ds will be being baptised by a vicar that I work with nowhere near my home because i am so pissed off with my local church that despite them being attached to an excellent school 2 minutes walk i'm not prepared to be a hypocrite about it.

church schools were originally created to help educate the needy of the parish. instead they are now scrums to get many children whose parents could, at a push, go private, into a free and good state school. it's totally f*cked.

i'd love ds to go to a school that is 2 minutes walk. and i will be applying to the local church school. but i'm damned if i'll go to a church that makes us feel unwelcome to get him in. my spiritual life and that of my child's is much more important to me than that.

the anglican church is one of the biggest landowners in this country....how is it poor?????

"There just aren't enough practising catholics around here to sustain a purely catholic school"

so WHY IS IT THERE?!>!!!

SOPHABLE as you well know I wouldn't send her there if it were the last school on earth

so CD you're ranting about dd not being able to go to a school that you don't want her to go to anyway? Have I got it now

really? honestly, i don't think that is right....church school isn't going to make her catholic...and if you have a really close really good school that is on the way to your office, i think you're nuts not to apply. having said that i totally agree that you shouldn't be a hypocrite and lie to get her in.

yes Iota you have it

I started this not for myself but because i was watching the awful school programme about how these poor people have to lie about their religion to get their kids into a school not full of drug dealers and headcases

There is no way on earth I would send her there

Dh even less so he is v anti catholic

Oh I think I'm lost again!!!

StGM - have you got any mint choc chip, and I'll have a diet coke please.

CD, I don't know why it's there!. I think when it was built in the 60's there was much more demand for it, like many of the village church schools. It's the only catholic school in a largish town, which also has 2 CofE schools and 4 non-religious schools. Like I said, it was very popular with local parents because the class sizes were small - I think since I've left the classes have grown but quite a lot of the parents liked the idea of small classes.

You've got to remember that the CoE/RC schools are very traditional and you can't just go round closing schools down. Like it or not these schools generally have a very good reputation. But so do a lot of the standard primaries and that should be the first thought (which I know it is before I get shouted at!!!!! )

I went to a non religious primary and secondary and at no point did I attend school with drug dealers or headcases or indeed become any of those things!!!!

Assuming you do subscribe to a religion & are insufficiently confident that taking them to church or whatever yourself will keep them on the straight & narrow, spare a thought for the poor sods who do sneak in without subscribing to your particular set of beliefs.

It's actually no fun at all to be told x at school & then go home to be told 'Sister Y is a silly old woman who hasn't a clue about x. We only sent you there for the spelling.'

But they wouldn;t be closed down!!!!!!!!!!

They would still be there, exactly the same as today, only they would not be able to select on the basis of religion or sex!

The bar will be open at the interval. Please return to your seats promptly at the sound of the bell to prevent interrupting the viewing pleasure of your fellow patrons.

is everyone still at the bar?

Someone might want to be able to send their child quite simply to their nearest state school and yet be unable to thanks to its religious bias and religious selection process. It's not simply a case of religious schools being attractive as they are, therefore leading non-religious families to feel hard done by in not getting in (though the milder the religion the more likely it is to be tolerable, as in your typical village C of E school perhaps), it's more a case of those schools as they would be were they not religious and religiously selective, being attractive.

So it's not a case of please take away the selection on grounds of religion, but leave the religion, so my child can come to your religious school, but rather please make the nearest state school no longer religious or religiously selective, so even my non-religious child can then go to their local, state school.

Yes just sipping on a nice glass of pinot!!!

Or, if you do leave the religion, make its practice within the school environment at the same mild level whether the number of religious children is a vast majority or a tiny minority. That way you can perhaps avoid the segregation and indoctrination effect.