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Grammar schools - interesting article

240 replies

UnquietDad · 23/08/2006 15:48

it be here

I know it's over a year old, but I'm new here, so apologies if people have seen it before!

As a former grammar school boy myself - whose parents could never have afforded to go private - I found it interesting. I find it a shame that my DD won't have the same opportunity.

OP posts:
blackandwhitecat · 25/08/2006 18:31

Piffle, don't get me wrong, in no way have I or would I criticise parents of kids at grammar school or kids or adults who went to grammar school. I totally sympatise with those who want the best for their kids. But you also said, 'how other children fare at school is their parents business. You make your choices.' and what I would say to that is how every kid fares in the education system should be everyone's business. We all pay our taxes and all our kids deserve the best education our taxes can provide. And when you say 'you make your choices' you have to understand that many people don't have many choices. For example, the 75% of kids who don't go to the grammar school in your area aren't really benefiting from the 'choice' of a grammar school education are they even though their parents' taxes are paying for it. And there are so many other examples of this. Like what kind of choice is available to you if the only schools you can walk to (when you don't drive) are faith schools and you don't have a faith and don't want to adopt one?

Unquiet dad, I understand that I'm not going to change your opinion and I appreciate and understand those of you who are defending grammar schools because they have benefited you or your kids but some of what you say is just not true. For example, you say there is 'very strong evidence that the removal of grammar schools has helped to WIDEN the class divide.' when actually it is clear that the class divide has not widened. Since the comprehensive system was introduced the number of kids leaving school with qualifications has increased, kids going to university have increased. DRAMATICALLY. You can't argue with that.

Does anyone know what percentage of kids were educated in grammar schools because it would be really helpful?? I don't know and would be pleased to be corrected but supposing it was 40% (almost certainly less). Even if you really believe that a significant proportion of those kids were from working-class backgrounds (and you can see how if only 40% of kids went to grammar school at all there really can't have been very many in relation to the number of working-class kids in the population) you must also see that 60% of kids did not benefit from grammar schools.

And, unquiet dad, can you really say that allowing the kids who passed the 11+ with the highest marks into grammar schools (you can't object to the way I've put that can you?) wouldn't affect the kids who didn't pass and went to secondary moderns?

What impact do you think it would have on the remainder if the top 10-40% students from your kids' school or best-performing salespeople in a shop or police from a police-station and put them in an institution on their own?

As a teacher, I can tell you that having a couple of bright students in a class can make a vast difference to the dicussion, learning and even aspirations of a single class. Multiply that in a school as a whole. I imagine most teachers would tell you the same. And most teachers would also tell you what it's like to teach kids who are not in the 'top set' and the impact it has on a child's aspirations and motivation if they are labelled 2nd best or 'not academic'.

Rojak · 25/08/2006 21:05

I'm going to raise a slightly contentious point here but the number of kids going to university may have gone up dramatically but how much of that is a result of polys turning into unis and widening the scope for admission into unis.

And these days a university education just isn't enough anymore especially if you're doing a general arts / humanities degree (don't all jump on me now - I have one of these but graduated a long time ago!)

See also the other thread on 97% pass rates at "A" levels.

milward · 25/08/2006 21:16

Perhaps a move to the french uni system would be good - you can go to any uni but there are exams set by the uni after the first year to decide who stays. It's tough and students have to work hard to pass.

snorkle · 25/08/2006 21:31

Message withdrawn

milward · 25/08/2006 21:33

Seems to work - I don't have actual experience of it - just what I've heard. Think it gets rid of the problem of lots of top marks at school finishing exams and the tutors finding it hard to see who is able to do the course - something that seems to happening with the uk system?

UnquietDad · 25/08/2006 22:51

from b&wcat:"Since the comprehensive system was introduced the number of kids leaving school with qualifications has increased, kids going to university have increased. DRAMATICALLY. You can't argue with that." But I'm taking issue with the assumption you make about (or conclusion you draw from) this - i.e. that this automatically means the class gap has narrowed. I don't think it necessarily does. There is an ongoing debate - yet to come to any happy conclusion - about the implications of the rising GCSE and A-level pass rates and all these extra people doing degree courses.

b&wcat - we're never going to agree as, like politicians cross the despatch box, we can each produce conflicting statistics.

I think the problem may arise because we are not comparing like with like - the research I cited in my original post compares children born in 1958 with children born in 1970 across 8 countries. The conclusion reached is that Britain is the only one of those eight nations where the class gap IS widening. And these two points in time represent either side, more or less, of the almost-total abolition of grammar schools. I admit it's not explicitly stated as a proven causal link, but one would have to be daft to overlook the implication.

I say "almost-total", of course, because I was born not far off 1970 into a professional family, but one not in an income bracket to afford private school fees, and I had the benefit of a grammar school education... I agree, other people in my school year didn't have that. But were they disadvantaged by not having had the chance, or were they actually given more of a chance to thrive in a school more suited to their abilities?

I transferred at 13, and plenty of people were much happier to be staying where they were - they (or their parents) wouldn't have touched the grammar-school with a barge-pole. There were lots of things you could do at the comp which you couldn't at my school. The grammar certainly wasn't the place to go if your aim was to be, say, a chef, for which you'd probably have needed a Home Economics O-Level or CSE, among others, to go on to catering college.

It's very difficult to say this sort of thing without having it turned back on you - usually someone claims you are trying to say "ooh, keep the sweaty proles where they are, doing their shabby little catering and drama courses, while we, the hoity-toity intellectual elite, ensconce courselves in towers of learning to peruse Virgil and ponder the mysteries of Higher Mathematics." I hope you'll realise that's NOT what I'm saying.

It's horses for courses. We've got to get away from this idea of stigmatising secondary mods and comps as somehow 'worse'. If the people who went to them believe that they turned out well - and in my experience they usually do - then why do they feel that others having had a grammar school education has somehow deprived them of something? It's almost as if the stigma is attached by the comprehensive/ secondary mod kids themselves, not by others.

OP posts:
southeastastra · 25/08/2006 23:03

my brain can't read all these thread but i still think all schools should be equal, but my son has no choice there is one school for all the children in the borough (unless they are religious/private) why are we putting so much pressure on them?

Joolstoo · 25/08/2006 23:04

as a child of the 50's I know that grammar schools were a class narrower. Kids who were academically talented from less well off backgrounds benefited greatly from the system, gaining scholarships to prestige grammar schools in Manchester or just gaining the normal grammar school place and not only that taking the chance that was given and using it.

It was the adults who started spouting about 'failures' and 'scrap heaps' when kids were sent to secondary schools - no such analogy entered the kids heads. If you ask a child 'ooooh do you feel ok, you look a bit off colour' ten to 1 they'll say ' oooh yes I do feel a bit yuk' but if you say 'you look fabbo' they'll feel fabbo.

It's the adults you plant the seed of 'failure' with their rhetoric. I'm staggered that more people don;t get that/

UnquietDad · 25/08/2006 23:11

Child of the 70s here, Joolstoo, but I think you're right. By "kids stigmatising themselves" I meant people who were secondary modern/comp kids and are now adults, talking about "the scrap-heap at age 11" and so on. You probably realised that! But I agree totally - 9 times out of 10, if you asked the kids at the comp where my DW teaches if they feel disadvantaged by their choice of school, they probably wouldn't know why you were even asking.

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harpsichordcarrier · 25/08/2006 23:15

as a child of the 80s who went to a comprehensive that had only recently been changed from a secondary modern, I would say that the adults spouting failure included many of those actually teaching us, though.
factory fodder. is what they called us.
a message pretty strongly reinforced by the acres of metalwork labs and one book per 200 pupils.
(I exaggerate, slightly)

southeastastra · 25/08/2006 23:17

let children BE children, they have enough to worry about, seems to me the adults cause all the trouble with the schooling system. let the professionals/teachers/people who actually work with children decide which is best

UnquietDad · 25/08/2006 23:24

That's awful, harpsichordcarrier - would like to think that wasn't typical. It just helps me to reiterate my point, though - if the unnecessary stigma attached to comps wasn't there, the perceived 'elitism' people see in grammar schools could be overturned. As I said below, DW teaches in a comp and there is NOTHING like this at all - it's all very positive - it's all 'you CAN achieve, you CAN do well, this is an excellent school', etc.

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harpsichordcarrier · 25/08/2006 23:37

ah well this was a little while ago, and by now that generation of teachers will have mostly retired.
but the influence of teachers is very strong of course

Alibaldi · 26/08/2006 00:14

Child of the 60's/70's here. Posted and berated on this thread. One comment. The system can fail children, but so can parents. Just because a family is less well off doesn't mean that a child has to fail intellectually does it??? We can all stimulate our children. Books are available for free in libraries. Adult education courses exist. The more we bang on about elitism and class struggle the more inground it gets, and the more children will continue to have chips on their shoulders. Our children should be encouraged to succeed at whatever they are good at, be it medicine, painting, carpentry or road sweeping. We should be proud of all their achievements both great and small.

UnquietDad · 26/08/2006 00:16

applause Alibaldi!

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Alibaldi · 26/08/2006 00:24

Thank you UD. Fed up of class being thrust down my throat to be honest. So I'm lucky with my background I know I am. But is it any wonder that children get complexes reading some of the comments on here.

Panboy · 26/08/2006 01:21

Oooh, touchy subject, Ali. Am balking at your attitude about others I'm afraid. It seems you wish to take advantage of your advantages, but castigate those who are notas fortunate ( in some way) as yourself.

No, no need for 'less well off' children to fail intellectually...BUT every reason for them to fail academically.

For you to say you are fed up with class being shoved down your throat is not unlike a racist saying they are fed up with anti-racism being shoved down their throat. You are coming across as a "selfish liberal".i.e want it all for everyone, so long as I continue to have the best bit.

Gillian76 · 26/08/2006 01:27

No opinion on the subject, bu can we please fix the spelling error on the homepage, MN?

Gillian76 · 26/08/2006 01:28

but

Panboy · 26/08/2006 01:29

G! That is sooooo funny...

Panboy · 26/08/2006 02:18

Directly quoting Ali, and she wasn't being ironic........."Our children should be encouraged to succeed at whatever they are good at, be it medicine, painting, carpentry or road sweeping."...

oh feck off, dear.

Alibaldi · 26/08/2006 02:41

Thank you for the personal attack Panboy. I love being criticised . To stimulate a child intellectually you should be able to assist the child academically. This thread has become far too personal so will say no more on this subject.

Panboy · 26/08/2006 02:45

Good. Don't.

suzywong · 26/08/2006 03:00

has this thing kicked off yet?

Panboy · 26/08/2006 03:06

You are such a trouble maker, you....