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Education

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Grammar schools - interesting article

240 replies

UnquietDad · 23/08/2006 15:48

it be here

I know it's over a year old, but I'm new here, so apologies if people have seen it before!

As a former grammar school boy myself - whose parents could never have afforded to go private - I found it interesting. I find it a shame that my DD won't have the same opportunity.

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CarolinaMoon · 24/08/2006 20:06

easy MB!!

It just reminded me of several teachers at my school who sent their kids private, even though our school was by no means 'tough' and did v well in the league tables (albeit in a fairly low-achieving borough).

Blandmum · 24/08/2006 20:09

I couldn't do my job as well if I didn't have the flexibility of the wrap around care. I can drop the kids off at school at 8 which means I can make breifing at 8.30. If they need to, if I am running a catch up session for example, or have a meeting, they can stay in school until 6....most days I pick them up at the end of school....the system is flexable , which is what I need.

Just think how awful it would be to be in the school where you parents worked....I'd have hated it. Most teenagers don't want to be seen in public with their parents, let along have their mum bollock their 'cool' friends How awful that would be!

CarolinaMoon · 24/08/2006 20:17

AAARRRGGHHH at that thought MB. My mum was a teacher and it would have been toecurlingly excruciating if she'd taught at my school.

Don't most teachers aim to work several light years away from where they live anyway, to minimise the risk of ever being caught living a normal life by their pupils?

Blandmum · 24/08/2006 20:33

I do live in the general area, but not, thankfuly the catchemt area. Some memvers of staff who do have had their gardens and car vandelised by students and ex students of the school.

I quite like the 'Hullo miss' in town...they are always anmazed that you don't live in the school and actualy go to supermarkets!

blackandwhitecat · 24/08/2006 20:46

I met my partner also a teacher at the school where I got my first job under rather difficult circumstances. Will never forget him coming out of my house with me for the first time in sight of the whole top deck of the school bus . Fortunately it's rare for either of us to bump into our students and we work in different places now anyway.

Blandmum · 24/08/2006 20:52

Dh and I went out for a meal not that long ago....blue moon job, got a baby sitter etc.

I kid you not 20+ of the sixth form arrived for an 18th birthday meal! Thankfully the were in a different part of the resturant, but they all trouped past, 'Evening Miss'. they thought it was a hoot!

TheRealCam · 24/08/2006 21:16

I haven't read this thread but the whole point of grammar schools was they used to give any academically bright child (from whatever background) the chance to be educated academically.

What's wrong with that as a concept?

Celia2 · 24/08/2006 21:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

UnquietDad · 24/08/2006 22:54

CarolinaMoon"Don't most teachers aim to work several light years away from where they live anyway, to minimise the risk of ever being caught living a normal life by their pupils?"

Yes, this is one of the reasons why DW doesn't want to work in our city, hence why she has to leave so early and I do the school drop-off. The kids she teaches live and socialise around their town and very rarely come the 30+ miles further south to our city, so she never gets the "hello, miss" out in public - she'd hate it!

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blackandwhitecat · 25/08/2006 07:32

'the whole point of grammar schools was they used to give any academically bright child (from whatever background) the chance to be educated academically.

What's wrong with that as a concept?'

Where do I start? Yes you are taking the most apparently 'academically bright' children (I'll come back to that concept in a minute) and giving them the best and most academic education with other 'academically bright' children and at the same time writing off the other 90% of children as not 'academically bright' and not deserving of an 'academic eduation'. The children not at grammar school will always know they are failures and that they are receiving a 2nd class, not very academic eduation. The kids at secondary moderns were steared towards leaving school at 16 and heading for the pit or to get married or whatever. THey sat different qualifications (CSEs) which, like them, were considered second best. THey never had the opportunity to grow up with and learn from and listen to the ideas of the most 'academically bright' kids at grammar schools. Are you starting to see some problems yet?

Ok, back to the concept of the 'academically bright' child from 'whatever background'. THe problem with this is that the children judged the most 'academically bright' are rarely from 'whatever background'. They are and were almost invariably middle-class. And they have to and had to pass the 11+. Now the 11+ is not some totally objective test of innate intelligence (is there such a thing as innate intelligence or a way to test it? No and no). You had to be able to write essays, do comprehension and do maths etc etc. Now, if you've grown up in a house where learning was valued, where your parents were well-educated, where you were taught to read and enjoy reading from birth, where your family had a rich vocabulary and valued education, where your family had the time and the motivation and the ability to help you learn and coach you for the 11+ and where you were sent to the best primary schools which may well have had one eye on the 11+ you are going to have rather more chance of passing the 11+ than a child who comes from a deprived background who may well have been born with equal intelligence. Can you see that?

Grammar schools have always selected mostly from the middle-classes. A working-class student who got through the 11+ was relatively rare and, in areas, where the 11+ still exists this whole situation has intensified further. If you've had a chance to look at the other thread on the 'Admission Impossible' programme you will know that the pass rate into schools like Wallington Grammar is 18%. That means less than 20 out of 100 kids pass. This means competition is fierce. THe programme showed a child being coached for the test by his father and a paid private tutor for 2 years. The majority of parents who enter their kids for the 11+ will be middle-class, aspirational and very often pushy to a small or great extent. Making the choice for your child to sit the 11+ already says a lot about your ambitions and even if all you do is show your child a sample paper or 2 that's a lot more than many parents would want to or in many cases be able to. And all those parents who say 'I haven't done anything to push my child. If it's meant to be it's meant to be' are not acknowledging that just by growing up with you as (middle-class, fairly educated) parents which most of you will be you are already giving your child a head-start which may or may not be enough to get them through the exam.

Before any one starts, I know there are exceptions. You may well know someoen whose parents worked down t'pit but whose child passed the 11+ against the odds and went to Oxbridge and became a brain surgeon. These parents saved all their money so they could afford the grammar school uniform (which cannot ever be bought at ASDA for £2.99 by the way) etc etc. This grammar-school educated adult will understably always be grateful for the grammar school system. But ask his brother or neighbour who went to the secondary modern how he feels about grammar schools.

blackandwhitecat · 25/08/2006 07:36

And, to clarify, the 18% pass rate to Wallington grammar is already out of the parents who have CHOSEN for their kids to sit the 11+ in the first place so are already self-selected. ANd what about if you are an academically gifted child whose parents don't know or care about the 12+. The grammar school system was a terrible, class-ridden system which by and large ensures the middle-classes do well and are kept away from the nasty masses and the nasty masses stay in their place.

CarolinaMoon · 25/08/2006 07:45

great post B&WCat.

dp's grandfather was one of those working class kids who passed the 11+ only to find his parents couldn't afford the uniform .

ScummyMummy · 25/08/2006 08:33

Brilliant posts bandwcat. Totally agree.

milward · 25/08/2006 08:55

b&wcat - great post

my grammar school was full of well off kids - no one from a council house at all - strange that.

UnquietDad · 25/08/2006 11:30

And my grammar school was full of people from all sorts of backgrounds, different types of houses and families.

It was also the most ethnically diverse school in the town.

As the Americans say, "go figure".

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Rojak · 25/08/2006 12:14

Your grammar school was probably the same one I went to UnQuiet Dad if it wasn't for us being in Northern Ireland.

I am not white and my grammar school had far more "ethnic" faces than the school at the end of my street which is 99% white!

TheRealCam · 25/08/2006 12:21

When I took the 11+ in 1967, it consisted of verbal reasoning and mathematical reasoning.

It was actually an IQ test and we were't even aware of when we took the real thing beacuse we did those kind of tests all the time in class, and we were deliberately not told when it was actually the 11+

Being an IQ test, it tested for potential, not achievement.

And at the grammar school I attended, there was an enormous range of backgrounds, classes, etc.

Blandmum · 25/08/2006 12:27

There was still a degree of cultura bias in the intelegence test though. And there was little attempt to seek out the late developers.

The single biggest thing wrong with the grammer system was there was a wildly disproprtionate amount of money spent on those who passed the 11+ over those who failed.

The system might have had more in its favour if it had been more equitable and fair in its tratment of the children

TheRealCam · 25/08/2006 12:34

Wasn't there something called the 13+ or is my senile memory playing tricks?

UnquietDad · 25/08/2006 12:35

I didn't do a 13+, but I went to grammar school at 13 after two years at a secondary school. That was the standard thing in Kent back then. God knows why.

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Marina · 25/08/2006 12:41

My grammar school in SE London was diverse in backgrounds and quite wide in abilities.
I agree with MB - I think there is nothing wrong with offering a grammar education to children who are suited to it, provided the same investment and trouble is made in other kinds of secondary education.
It is possible to prefer a school that can offer children (for example) GCSE provision in two or three MFLs and Latin, without thinking a well-resourced and managed comprehensive is in any way second best or that the children who go there are inferior .
One local borough runs grammars and some really excellent non-selective schools that offer a great, more vocationally-based education. It can happen. Children are diverse in their needs and state education should offer the best education it can for all aptitudes and talents.

Marina · 25/08/2006 12:43

UnquietDad, my dh transferred at 13 to a Kent grammar too. I don't think he sat an exam for this either.

blackandwhitecat · 25/08/2006 14:59

'I agree with MB - I think there is nothing wrong with offering a grammar education to children who are suited to it, provided the same investment and trouble is made in other kinds of secondary education.'

A system which provided the same investement and trouble for every child would be called a comprehensive system. What a shame there isn't and never has been one.

I just knew that loads of you would start trying to tell me that your grammar school was wonderfully diverse and didn't negatively affect all the children who didn't go there. What were they called please?

TheRealCam · 25/08/2006 15:02

You want to know the name of my grammar school?

blackandwhitecat · 25/08/2006 15:04

'And my grammar school was full of people from all sorts of backgrounds, different types of houses and families.'

'My grammar school in SE London was diverse in backgrounds and quite wide in abilities.'

Well, if you really think your grammar school was full of people from different backgrounds and abilities (as opposed to a minority) then just imagine what the nearest secondary modern was like!!!