Lord of the Flies & Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - what age group?

[BananaChoccyPancake]

Just wondering what age these books are most suitable for, assuming an able reader.

Also, does anyone know if there's such a thing as a wiki-style "Parents' Guide" for books, like the IMDb one for movies?

"By 9 I'm certain your DS knows what a whore is."

MY DCs school read one of the Lady Grace Mysteries in Year 4, and the whore word was definitely in that. I can't help wondering if DS's teacher skipped it when she read it out, as she was rather a traditional old dear.

Radio 4 Today this morning had a piece about criminalising prostitution. My 10 year old certainly didn't know what a prostitute was! (Couldn't get his head around the idea of buying sex when I tried to explain: "why would a man do that?".

HHGTTG I think would be OK for 10+, but some of the jokes would be missed. LOTF is seriously disturbing. Third year was quite soon enough. Have to admit I don't remember any rape in it despite writing A-graded essays on the book.

I read Animal Farm when I was about 8 and was hugely upset by it for ages - it had pictures of cute animals on the cover so I had no idea it wasn't a children's book. Didn't help that I then followed it up with 1984 (slim book, bright cover, looked more like a book for me than for my parents...)

Nocomet / JustAnotherUserName
I've told DS what a whore is (can't remember why he asked, probably something in a film). As a piece of information, it hasn't even remotely lodged in his mind because he doesn't really understand what sex is, despite attempts to tell him using proper body part names and everything. IMO, kids can literally block out learning that they don't yet want to deal with. I don't think there's anything wrong with knowing what a whore is at 9, but I certainly don't think all 9yo boys are the same. DS is 11 today, and I swear he's 11 going on 9. Other boys are 11 going on 13.

Lord of the Flies was a set work for me in Yr9. I found it sickening - but no one else in the class seemed to have a problem with it.

My son has listened to the whole of HHGTTG on the original broadcast recordings (he's 8, Yr4) but I don't think he would get through the book yet - and he is a good reader.

mistlethrush Out of interest, did you vocalise your feelings about it in class? Or did you keep quiet?

My 10yo DD adores HHGTTG, she started with an audio book then asked for the books for Christmas and has been loving them.
She also loves Terry Pratchett's Tiffany Aching series, if you are looking for something different.
I personally wouldn't suggest LOTF to a young teen. Genuinely horrifying.

Lord of the Flies - we were 14 - exactly the correct age to explore its huge themes.

We had to write about the 'noble savage' vs the 'fallen man' ie: do we need civilisation to civilise us?

I loved it. The film is brilliant too.

Rape imagery? What was that? I know the decomposing head of the airman was supposed to be 'The Lord of the Flies' ie: Satan but never got rape imagery.

And I think an 11 year old is quite capable of reading any of these works of literature but they will need to revisit them when older to actually grasp the themes rather than just the plotline.

MrsSteptoe - no, I didn't because I tried to stand out as little as possible in terms of class dynamics - it was difficult enough without exacerbating things. Perhaps that's part of why it hit home so much?

Oh no not the airman it was the pig, wasn't it. But I don't recall any rape imagery...perhaps I was too busy focusing on 'what it means to be human' which is the major theme of this amazing book.

Loved HHGTG at 10. Radio 4 Extra are broadcasting the original radio programmes at the moment, might be a good way in?

Ds read Lord of the Flies in school in Yr 5. Don't think he got much out of it at all, so would wait until about 12 as others have said.

He is reading Hitchhikers now (at 10) and enjoys it. He finds it funny, but I have no way of telling if there is humour that he is missing.

I was 8 or 9 and asked what a prostitute was in front of my grandparents (Yorkshire ripper all over the news). My DDad told me in the car going home.

I'd always know (from being a toddler) what sex was. DDad always answered questions.

I have DDs the older one of whom just tends to absorb stuff. The younger one looks , but puts two and two together.

I don't remember a rape scene in LOTF - mind you, I haven't touched it since I was 13 and had to do it in school.

I was a precocious reader and worked my way through my mum's bookcase, reading a lot of stuff at about the age of 7 that really wasn't child-friendly. Having said that, I blanked out/skimmed over a lot of stuff that I didn't get, like sex scenes or other nuances.

I read Watership Down at that age, and really enjoyed it. I then got The Plague Dogs out of the library as I assumed it was another animal story - which it was, to be fair, but there was a hell of a lot more adult stuff in it and lots more human-related stuff. I reread it in my twenties and there was so much in it I'd missed.

Actually the thing that freaked me out about Watership Down were the quotes at the start of the chapters - this one in particular I can still recall word for word, it sunk into my brain and creeped me out so much:

When the green field comes off like a lid
Revealing what was much better hid;
Unpleasant
And look, behind you without a sound
The woods have come up and are standing round
In deadly crescent.

The bolt is sliding in its groove,
Outside the window is the black removers' van.
And now with sudden swift emergence
Come the woman in dark glasses and humpbacked surgeons
And the scissors man.

I did not have the capacity to process this as a seven year old and it gave me the screaming abdabs...

DD1 did Animal Farm before Christmas in Yr8 - she got a lot out of it, but that was because it was very well taught with a lot of discussion about politics, the nature and use of propaganda and the rise and fall of Communism. Its relevance today was very well presented, it's a very worthwhile book but it needs to be backed up by some good teaching.

LOTF is a book I would not want my DDs to read until they are older, although I do think it is a brilliant book - not warped, just an unflinching dissection of the fragility of human civilisation.

FWIW my DD1 is reading Michael Moorcock's Elric stories for pleasure at the moment and we are having some interesting debates about gender roles in fiction as well as about use of language.

DD2 is reading To Kill A Mockingbird in her extension group in Yr6 - she's 11, I read it at the same age and then again when I was older and got very different things from it but it was all worthwhile. At home she's reading Good Omens by Pratchett/Gaiman, we devour Pratchett at home. It's much less of a difficult book than I Shall Wear Midnight, which she has also read (though I read it to both of them first in light of the difficult subject matter in places).

They both know what prostitutes are.

Watership Down is truly amazing piece of work and hugely underrated I think.The sense of this creeping primal horror which he sustains all the way through.

'the scissors man'

The film is terrifying too

DD1 aged 9 has just read When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit which I think she enjoyed and which I think is an excellent introduction to the experience of being a refugee.

Although she then said that she wasn't sure about the book's title as at no point does Hitler steal a rabbit I hope she reads it again when she is a bit older.

Ah yes, Watership Down, 'a proper grown-up novel for children' supposedly, which really is much better read by adults. I found it heavy going at 9, despite being a precocious reader. The presence of the pre-chapter quotes was puzzling to me as a child, and as an adult I find them rather pretentious. I enjoyed the book, though, when I finally got into it.

FWIW, I think that a lot of whether a child can handle the themes and imagery of a given book (whether aimed at adults or children) is down to the individual child's temperament, rather than age or reading ability. Some children's books are every bit as disturbing as LOTF (The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas, for example, and that one about a nuclear holocaust by, I think, Robert Swindells?) I find it rather patronising to suggest that all children's/young people's fiction should have themes that are watered down, made more palatable or otherwise 'easier to handle'. Kids are generally pretty good at working out their own limits with these things.

WHY are Year 6s doing To Kill a Mockingbird? It is the 2nd most popular set text for GCSE and the most popular choice for top sets. I know they get different things out of it but we have a hard enough job at secondary trying to get teenagers into Literature - please, primary teachers, leave us SOMETHING to grab them with!

There was a fab thread on mumsnet a while ago about traumatising fiction for young teens in the 1980's/90's.

Brother in the Land was one I remember well - flipping awful, post holocaust nightmare.

It's not all of Yr6, IHeart, it's a very small extension group who are all very able readers not just technically but in terms of their emotional maturity. They're a bit unusual, and I've seen some scary bright children. I suspect most things you throw at them would grab them, but I do take your point...

If it's any consolation I think that TKaM is the sort of book you can revisit again and again.

I'll try and steer her away from GCSE books in future though, there is a lot of other good stuff around after all.

And wol I agree with you - not letting children read books they are emotionally ready for is just as bad as dumping Private Peaceful on a group where only a handful may be able to deal with the content.

Pointy - I read Bleak House when I was 11 (in 3 days)(so fairly capable with reading!). However, I still found LoTF horrid to read at 13/14. The Spire also by William Golding is a fascinating book but not as horrid.

I spoke to the head teacher today when I picked up. the children were deciding for themselves what they wanted to read in bookclub, and decided on lotf from what was written on the back on a copy in the libary.

The teacher took it to the headteacher and said she wasnt comfortable doing it. The headteacher agreed and they are going to choose something else.

Im glad I dont think 10 year old dd1 would get anything from it, but the younger children definitely wouldnt.

mistlethrush sorry, this has got separated a bit from the above posts, but I was more thinking that there were probably lots of people in the class who felt exactly like you, but because you were all keeping quiet about it, each of you thought everyone else was fine with it. Who knows, maybe one of them is even on this thread...