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Benefits of selective education?

999 replies

AmberTheCat · 19/02/2014 12:41

I'm aware that I've been cluttering up the 11+ tutoring thread with discussions the OP said she didn't want, on the merits or otherwise of grammar schools in principle, so I'll stop doing that and start my own thread!

So, I genuinely don't get why so many people think separating children by ability (or potential, or however you try to do it) at 11 or even younger is a good thing. Why will they benefit more from that than from properly differentiated teaching in a comprehensive school? And what about the children who aren't selected? How does a selective system benefit them?

Genuine questions. I'm strongly in favour of comprehensive education, but would really like to better understand the arguments against.

OP posts:
TalkinPeace · 23/02/2014 15:02

hellsbells
welcome to the maelstrom

impatient
parental choice was brought in by the fragrant Bliar and Broon : before them, state school parents had to settle for catchment
yes
yob central would be infinitely better if the whole top three sets came back
I openly admit to being a coward (unlike many MN hypocrites)
I'll not send my kids back there till everybody does

oddly
the Poles may be our salvation as they have to send their kids there (long story) and will most likely pull the whole school up

BUT
schools will always reflect their areas
as will hospitals and house prices and businesses
should that be a surprise?

Vanillachocolate · 23/02/2014 15:03

removing all school choice except state or private might well have a significant impact on attainment in some schools

It will not improve attainment a bit. High achievers will do well (though less well than in selective schools), low achievers will continue failing. It will improve averages which will hide the problem and remove you from the spot light.

Under the recent reform your salary depends on results, doesn't it. So pulling grammar pupils in your class will increase your salary, but will not benefit those kids.

Your salary, your own kids, your self interest is what this thread is about.

TalkinPeace · 23/02/2014 15:06

vanilla
Your salary, your own kids, your self interest is what this thread is about.
you may be interested only in you,
some of us have wider horizons

PLEASE
answer the questions that have been asked of you or SHUT UP

teacherwith2kids · 23/02/2014 15:09

"Why do you keep on arguing that other people should compromise on the best placement for their child when you act in the interest of your DS and not send him to the local sink school whatever it is."

I send my DS to my local catchment comp. That is not a 'choice' as such, it is the only comp that he could get a place in, because there is a priority admissions area system round here.

I am not quite certain why you argue that, as a supporter of comprehensive schools, I should deliberately seek out the worst possible of those schools? I can assure you that I have not 'deliberately sought out' a particular comp at all - simply sent my children to the local school.

"While you argue as a mother that it is in the interest of your child in a comprehensive to have more bright kids from grammars around?"

No, I argue that the comprehensive system is the best option for the education of all in society to the best of their ability. I would except the very, very ends of the spectrum of ability - those for whom special schools are the best option due to the need for specialist education for those who for reasons of disability or exceoptionally rare ability. Even those I believe should be - as they are locally - sited adjacent to comprehensive schools so that there is flexibility and movement between the schools and shared facilities and resources. I acknowledge that some schools are not good - but my definition of this is different from yours. A school is not good if every child in it does not make the progress they are capable of, regardless of the absolute level of qualifications that they leave with - for some children, that will mean that 10 As is a failure, for others that 1 GCSE is a success. However, I also argue that schools require the support of a vast number of other services to ensure that children are not held back by outside school factors - and that support is not always forthcoming.

Vanillachocolate · 23/02/2014 15:10

Talkin,

You double standard and hypocrisy is obvious.
Why do you keep talking about what my kids should be doing?
You have no authority moral or otherwise to talk about that.

You are a Parent Governor?

Focus on the job at hand and improve your school.

winterhat · 23/02/2014 15:12

Properly differentiated teaching in a comprehensive school doesn't always happen, due to reasons of time. In a grammar school the teacher will spend their time creating a lesson for those of similar ability, leaving more time for other aspects of their job and helping students. In a comprehensive, the teacher who differentiates correctly may have to create two or three parallel activities or levels for each lesson, so the preparation time is longer and leaves them less time for their other work.

winterhat · 23/02/2014 15:14

I would except the very, very ends of the spectrum of ability - those for whom special schools are the best option due to the need for specialist education for those who for reasons of disability or exceoptionally rare ability.

That's good reasoning. But why in so many areas are there specialist state schools for the least able, but never for the most able, who have just as many needs at the other end of the spectrum?

Vanillachocolate · 23/02/2014 15:20

Teacher,

'Comprehensive being the best for all in society' is a theoretical utopia that proven to be impossible to achieve on the ground because of capitalist economy and social divisions on the ground. It is a good ideology which failed in implementation, like communism.

In practice, very few comprehensives are really good attractive schools. Most are medioccre and some are sink schools. Arguing for fully comprehensive now is to simply drag those who managed to find a more suitable placement for their DC into the mediocrity.

Without improving standards mixing kids will not improve anything.

It will benefit league table statistics and teachers' salaries.

Teachers' salaries - and a little bit of envy- this is what this debate is about.

You are arguing to sacrifice my DC future to get a salary raise. (your quote "it is unfais thgat teachers are penalised for the ...")

I understand you high aspirations and you beliefs and that your are doing your bit.

Just leave other children out of it.

LaVolcan · 23/02/2014 15:21

PLEASE
answer the questions that have been asked of you or SHUT UP

Hear, hear.

I assume that if Vanilla has a comprehensive near to her then it's not good. It seems either extremely arrogant, or just plain stupid, to assume that because one school is not good, then the other 6000 plus are no good either.

Usually when I hear someone opining that the 'schools are no good round here' my first question is 'which ones have you visited? If the answer is 'none', then IMO their opinion can be taken with a pinch of salt.

Vanillachocolate · 23/02/2014 15:40

You can't silence the parents, when you argue their DC should change school.

The mediocrity of comprehensives is plainly visible in league tables as I shown many times.

I can't think of any comp that is more attractive than the current placement of my DC. If you want parents to want comprehensives, you should make them desirable.

Now, if some of you are teachers, and some are Parent Governors,.. well it is your job to improve your schools.

It isn't the task for my children...

It isn't the task of kids in selective schools. I don't's see scores of parents with kids in selective schools, agreeing with you on this thread.
I mostly see people with some vested interest in comprehensives schools arguing about where other people's children should go.

teacherwith2kids · 23/02/2014 15:48

Ah, sorry, the comment about penalising had no monetary connotations at all - no teacher I know is motivated by money, and I certainly am not (my salary as a teacher is the same as my starting salary in industry when I started work 20 years ago - I am one of those sad souls twho teaches for the love of the job). I meant 'penalised through criticism', such as the criticism you are levelling at me and by extension at many other teachers.

If a teacher gets a class of selected, MC, very able children all at the same level to an A or A at GCSE, they have in general had to work much less hard, have done much less genuine teaching, than a colleague who moves a lower set of a comprehensive to Cs and Ds, or a highly mixed class with many social problems in their out of school lives to a range between E and A.

However, you have repeatedly stated on ths thread that all that matters is the headline results, regardless of progress from starting point. And to deliberately berate those who in fact work hardest, that is what feels so unfair to me and to many of my colleagues.

Wnterhat, as a primary teacher, I differentiate 3-5 ways in every class, all of the time. In good comprehensives, that is what happens - and tbh it's easier because the vast majority iof comprehensives set in the vast majority of subjects, so the range of abiklities is much smaller than in a typical primary. To state that something so basic to the teaching profession is imossible so grammars are the nly answer is simply a fallacy.

hellsbells99 · 23/02/2014 15:52

Normal comps are never going to top the league tables because they are non-selective!

TalkinPeace · 23/02/2014 15:53

I was going to respond to vanilla but as she is just a troll shall move on.

winterhat
Properly differentiated teaching in a comprehensive school doesn't always happen, due to reasons of time
could you provide evidence to support that assertion ?

teacherwith2kids · 23/02/2014 15:53

Vanilla, I have sorted my local schools by progress (value added score - because that's what matters, maximum progress by every individual child).

By that measure, comprehensives are truly excellent, selective schools are mediocre. [I do appreciate, by the way, the statuistical issues with VA for selective schools. They gain on the swings - the current cohort leaving were not recorded as having L6 in Y6 , despite many being so, so they gained a level simply by arriving in Y7, without the school doing anything. They lose on the roundabouts - GCSEs capped at A*. It isn't clear which causes the bigger distortion].

I am jusrt illustrating that the 'excellence' or otherwise of schools depends a lot on what you measure.

LaVolcan · 23/02/2014 15:57

The mediocrity of comprehensives is plainly visible in league tables as I shown many times.

You have shown absolutely nothing - you have been asked to produce the stats time after time and have consistently failed to do so. When you have been shown official statistics which refute your argument, you go off at a tangent and decide that something which is a target should have been redefined as a baseline, and so therefore the stats are rubbish.

OK you have chosen a school which is good for your DC. I applaud you in having the time and effort to go and visit the 6000+ comprehensives in the country so that you can really say you can't think of a better one.

(We don't know where your DC go to school. Perhaps it's just as well, or we would be able to look it/them up in the tables and see how they perform!)

If you were told 'all swans were white' and then a black swan turned up, you probably wouldn't refine your statement to say 'most or nearly all swans are white', you would say, that's not a swan - it's not white, because by definition it must be white to be a swan. If you believe that all comprehensives are bad schools, which I think by the tenor of your remarks that you do, then nothing is going to persuade you otherwise.

It's a pity that you have chosen to derail this thread with what would appear to be your own prejudices, because there is a serious debate to be had about how to deliver the best education to our children.

LauraBridges · 23/02/2014 15:59

The big divide is whether you benefit your own child or sacrifice it for principle (principle which in my view is a wrong principle anyway). Most of us seek to benefit our own children. That's where our moral duty lies.

There are a lot of comps which select by house price anyway so those parents buying in the leafy suburb are doing exactly what those of we women who pay school fees do - which is the morally good thing - benefiting our child.

The papers today have some articles about more and more comps having entry by random lottery which is the logical conclusion of one side of this argument.

" Tens of thousands of children face losing the automatic right to a place at their local secondary school amid a surge in the number of comprehensives using lottery-style admissions policies.

Figures show that around one-in-12 schools employ rules designed to engineer a more balanced student body and break the middle-class stranglehold on places.

Research by the Telegraph reveals that the number of highly oversubscribed secondary schools employing lotteries or “fair banding” systems rises close to 100 per cent in parts of London.

Across England, half of councils confirmed at least one school used them.

The shift is being driven by an increase in the number of academies and free schools that control their own admissions policies – independent of local council control.

The head of one major academies chain told the Telegraph that it was no longer “inherently fair or good for our society” to allow parents to move into the catchment area of a top school to secure a place.

Just a week before almost 600,000 children across England are allocated secondary schools for September, Sir Daniel Moynihan, chief executive of the Harris Federation, said it was wrong for an academy in an affluent area to “take its entire intake from right next door because it would be socially exclusive”.

A report to be published this week by the Sutton Trust will also reinforce the case for dismantling traditional catchment areas, saying access to the most popular comprehensives should “not be limited to those who can afford to pay a premium on their mortgages or rents”.

But the disclosure will provoke an outcry among parents who fear children’s futures are being dictated by the “roll of a dice”, with pupils often being turned away from a nearby school in favour of one several miles away.

Janette Wallis, senior editor of The Good Schools Guide, said: “Lotteries for school places are unpopular with parents. It makes school allocation feel excessively random and you end up with the awful cases of children who live on a school's doorstep being given a school across town.

“Most parents we talk to prefer the devil they know to the devil they don't.

The Department for Education said admissions were run by individual schools or councils but insisted places “should be allocated in a fair and transparent way”.

Parents will find out which state secondary school their children have been allocated as part of National Offer Day on Monday, March 3.

Most schools have traditionally allocated places based on distance between a pupil’s home and the school gates. It has allowed wealthier parents to buy property close to the best schools to secure places, with research suggesting that living in the catchment area of a highly sought-after institution can add an average £31,500 “premium” on to house prices.

But admissions guidance first introduced by Labour allows institutions to employ a series of measures designed to break the stranglehold.

Lotteries – or “random allocation” – involve some or all applicants having their names drawn from a ballot, giving pupils living several miles away the same chance of a place as those next door.

The “fair banding” system sees all applicants sit an aptitude test, with a set number of bright, average and low-ability pupils being admitted. Schools usually use distance or a lottery to decide who gets a place within each ability band.

Mrs Wallis said many parents "find fair banding complicated", but insisted it was preferable to straight lotteries because "its goals are clearer".

Last week, the Telegraph obtained data on the admissions policies of more than 1,400 schools – 43 per cent of those nationally.

Half of local authorities surveyed said at least one school in their area used lotteries, fair banding or both.

In total, eight per cent – one-in-12 – of the schools identified employed these admissions policies. Twice as many used fair banding as lotteries.

Extrapolated nationally, it would result in more than 260 schools using them.

Controversially, Brighton Council introduced rules in 2007 requiring all local oversubscribed schools to allocate places using random allocation.

The Coalition has since banned local authorities from imposing city-wide admissions lotteries.

But figures obtained by the Telegraph show that lotteries or banding systems are used by large numbers of schools in some areas to allocate places for this September.

In Hackney, east London, 10 out of 15 schools employ fair banding and two – The Petchey Academy and Mossbourne Community Academy – use both systems.

Ten out of 13 schools in Greenwich and 13 out of 17 in Tower Hamlets use banding. In Southwark eight schools use banding and two use lotteries, while in Kensington and Chelsea, three out of six schools use banding and two employ lotteries.

Outside the capital, it emerged that six school in Northamptonshire are using banding. This includes two – Northampton School for Boys and Northampton School for Girls – that use both banding and random allocation.

Speaking to the Telegraph, Sir Daniel said all Harris secondary academies used banding and two also employed lottery systems.

“I don’t think there is anything inherently fair in saying, ‘if I live right next to a school I need to get a place’,” he said.

“We have got some schools in quite affluent areas where there are multi-million pound homes – think Crystal Palace – and it would be wrong for that school to take its entire intake from right next door because it would be socially exclusive.

“So it uses fair banding and a lottery to take its children from a wider spread and that seems fair.

“I don’t see why it’s fair for someone living a quarter of a mile away to have a smaller chance of getting in than someone who’s next door because they can pay higher house prices.”

This week, a report from the Sutton Trust will show the full extent to which random allocation and banding is employed within England’s state education system.

It will recommend the adoption of a national banding exam for schools that choose to use the system – ending the current policy in which secondaries use a myriad of different tests.

Conor Ryan, the trust’s director of research, said: “Access to the most popular comprehensives should not be limited to those who can afford to pay a premium on their mortgages or rents. Banding or random allocation can allow pupils to access these schools from a wider area, and this can mean fairer admissions in heavily oversubscribed inner city schools.”

The latest issue of The Good Schools Guide – released this month – says lotteries “are starting to appear in popular city schools”, adding that there is “no known way of working this system to your advantage and when lots of schools in an area ballot for entry it can lead to parents having no effective influence on where there child goes”.

A DfE spokesman said: “More and more parents have the choice of a good school place thanks to our reforms – the number of children in failing secondary schools has fallen by a quarter of a million since 2010.

“We have turned these schools round by allowing outstanding sponsors and brilliant heads to lead them. We have given our teachers the freedom to teach the way they know works best. We are introducing a rigorous new curriculum and tough new exams that will match the world’s best. We are also allowing good schools to expand and great new schools to open where parents want them.

“The new admissions code is clear that all school places should be allocated in a fair and transparent way.” "

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10654688/Lotteries-used-to-break-middle-class-hold-on-school-places.html

soul2000 · 23/02/2014 16:03

Talkin. I have just found two School Sixth Forms in Southampton????

Bitterne Park which looks a Good School with 71% Gcse and Average C at A level and the other one that has no A level Average yet ,Hamble 50%. Gcse....

I was wondering though can anyone buy a school franchise from the (Lords) Lot ....

Vanillachocolate · 23/02/2014 16:05

OK, Teacher, I don't want this confrontation because I agree teachers are hard working altruistic decent people, important in DC lives and they should be respected.

However you need to acknowledge the problem. You really need to engage with the point about low attainment of the bottom 20%, the effect of this on the culture in comprehensives and the best interests of kids in the top 5% of ability range.

The point about salaries maybe is not what you ment, but it is relevant point, isn't it? The new policy did link the salaries to the results.

You can't apply the theoretical model, because you are not in a vacuum. There is a reality on the ground. The reality is there is a market and parents voted with their feet.

You need to make comprehensives attractive first. Then the things will sort themselves out.

Abolishing grammar schools will only polarise the division. Parents who could afford will go private or move into enclaves of leafiness where comprehensives are even posher than grammars. They will start more free schools.

The only winners will be the public school lot.

TalkinPeace · 23/02/2014 16:10

laura
a page of bilge from the brechou_graph that says nothing still says nothing,
what is your point?

soul
Hamble is to Southampton as Bromley is to London : 12 miles away
on the other hand
around 5 years ago, lots of the soton schools had the idea of restarting 6th forms to drag students back into the city
only the isolated (hamble) and the vv driven (bitterne) did it before a new agreement with the colleges
revered back to the norm

Vanillachocolate · 23/02/2014 16:12

LaVolcan, this is not a serious thread, but the indulgence in social envy. It is sustained by the hypocrisy and vested interests of the likes of you who select schools for their own DC, but argue that other DC shouldn't have the choice. This is the false debate.

Improve the schools and parents will go there.

LaVolcan · 23/02/2014 16:17

I know I shouldn't feed a troll, but since vanilla refers to 'the likes of you who select schools for their own DC' - in my case I sent each child to the local catchment comprehensive. (I moved house between times which is why there were two schools involved.)

Vanillachocolate · 23/02/2014 16:20

LaVolcan, you sent them where you wanted. Why are you arguing where other children should go?

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 23/02/2014 16:30

because some people think there are things worth worrying about other than what's in front of their own bloody noses!

LaVolcan · 23/02/2014 16:32

Vanilla: I sent them to the nearest school - the one in the days before there was any notion of 'choice' that the Local Authority would have sent them to anyway. We then worked with the schools, DH became a parent governor at one, so that we could help all children get a decent education from them.

Did I get what I wanted? Well, I didn't want to home educate, so I suppose I did. Both schools were co-educational, which I preferred, so I got what I wanted in that sense, but there was no choice in the matter.

I have not argued about where other children should go.

Martorana · 23/02/2014 16:32

Because we are not talking about individual children. We are talking about the best education system for everyone.

Oh and whoever said "But why in so many areas are there specialist state schools for the least able, but never for the most able, who have just as many needs at the other end of the spectrum?" can have ^absolutely" what life is like for the least able.