Benefits of selective education?

[AmberTheCat]

I'm aware that I've been cluttering up the 11+ tutoring thread with discussions the OP said she didn't want, on the merits or otherwise of grammar schools in principle, so I'll stop doing that and start my own thread!

So, I genuinely don't get why so many people think separating children by ability (or potential, or however you try to do it) at 11 or even younger is a good thing. Why will they benefit more from that than from properly differentiated teaching in a comprehensive school? And what about the children who aren't selected? How does a selective system benefit them?

Genuine questions. I'm strongly in favour of comprehensive education, but would really like to better understand the arguments against.

So there's a wish to feed one's child good food - fine. Does that make it acceptable to take all the available food so that another child has to go without and starves?

I agree with that, but I also know that deep down I would not make my child share his food with a starving child if there was only enough to feed himself and he vas very hungry. My own child will always be my priority above other children.

My own child's education will always be my priority. I will not feel bad about the child who's parents are not concerned about what school their child attends or are not concerned about providing enrichment activities to enhance their child's learning. I won't feel bad about the child who only has a choice of one poor school (as I myself had). I will not hold my own child back because other children are unable to have the same opportunities. I also won't feel envious of the parents who can provide more for their children than I can provide for my own because I know that living in a communist society these things are part of the norm.

But I am a selfish person and I fully accept that.

Duchese. I have just seen you post from page 26 at 12.47 Pm Today as I have just come in.

I found it interesting what you say that pupils need challenging and certainly DDs Senco has been successful in using these tactics with DD.

However I am miffed as to why you think my DDs statement is wrong based on the fact that (when She is in the right Mental Frame she can produce excellent quality work) she is capable of achieving high academic Standards.

I can see the subject has now moved on to Primary Schools not preparing students for senior school. This is relevant to DD who entered Secondary school with Level 3 C in Maths and level 3B in English despite her high IQ and made zero progress at secondary school.

The Primary/Secondary Schools are equally responsible for letting my Daughter down. Both Schools failed to provide the level of discipline or pastoral care needed for DD to flourish at school.

^^ NOT living in a communist society.
Proof that I went to a poor school

My own child's education will always be my priority. I will not feel bad about the child who's parents are not concerned about what school their child attends or are not concerned about providing enrichment activities to enhance their child's learning.

As individuals, I suspect that we would all prioritise our own child. As a society as a whole is it legitimate to accept that we will look after some and the rest can go hang?

It isn't looking after some and letting the rest go hang though. All children are still entitled to a full time education. There is some argument that selective schools don't actually provide a better education due to value added, so how is it letting some children 'go hang'?

I look out for my children first and foremost : that is why they are not at yobcentral my local school

BUT
if we ignore and despise those who do go to yobcentral a name for the school that long predates my living in the area we will end up paying for their benefits and tax credits and prison sentences
fwiw the school in question IS that bad

so only the short sighted and narrow minded cannot see that if the lower parts of the economy are more self sufficient, the burden covered by the upper part is lessened.

As with all "democratic" systems, those with the time, ability and articulacy should shout on behalf of all so that all benefit

cf the Duke of Westminster fighting to reform leasehold tenancy law : he's the landlord but had the breadth to see that happy tenants are worth the effort.

We articulate parents have the same duty of care over our less articulate peers
and no, that is not snobbish.
My illiterate clients accept that having me on board saves them money and inspires their kids.
We owe the less lucky parents at schools the same.

Morry- I don't doubt your daughter's intelligence. Obviously I know nothing about your daughter, but I do doubt some ADHD diagnoses in perfectly normally sparky children.

Talkinpeace. You have used Academic Selection in making sure your Children "Don't Go to YOB CENTRAL" .

You choose the school for your DCs based on what percentages are high Achieves and what percent the school gets at Gcse ( No Sixth form Hampshire)
and no doubt which Sixth form colleges the pupils end up at .

It was either Academic Selection or Selection though Snobbery....

But why should any child have to go to Yob Central? How do we as a society eliminate the Yob Centrals?

Having said that, it's perfectly possible for a school to have gained a bad reputation which, when you go to look at it, you find that if it was once 'Yob Central' it by no means still is. Similarly you can look around another school, which has been happily resting on its laurels and is quietly sliding down hill.

I'll always care more about my own children than other children too. That's why people shouldn't be able to design a society to meet the needs of their own family above others, just as the victims of a crime shouldn't be allowed to determine the punishment of the perpetrator.

There seems to be an odd view from many people that the children of less caring or less educated parents are less deserving, as if it's their fault that they're less privileged. It makes me feel a bit queasy. It's one thing to hold adults accountable for their own actions, but quite another, imo, to hold children responsible for their parents' actions.

soul2000
I have the luxury of bright children (and I accept that it is an intangible bonus)
my decision against YobCentral (in fact at that time it was 2 schools YC1 = disaster area YC2 = reasonable school) was attitude less than academic.
I know some of the teachers at YC : I knew they could do what I wanted, but I knew the rest of the class could not.
It was a deeply informed decision : one I have actually discussed face to face with the head of YC.

YC will never be abolished. It has shrunk - from 1700 to 400 pupils
but that rump remains.

WE have in fact got a local master plan out of the problem : Polish kids are here in huge numbers and work hard so will pull the schools up.

surreal huh!

Why is it surreal that Polish children should help pull up the British?

Also your language (masterplan) is a bit weird in the context. Perhaps think a little more before you type?

Anyhow, long story short: you've gone down the road of academic selection too TalkinPeace.

Serious question: do you and your DH job share?

ventura
cos thanks to the Daily Heil most people do not realise how FAB they are
the impact they have already had on local school results, employment, housing, you name it ....
and this city is over 10% polish !
the ones near here work hard and expect their kids to do the same.
JUST what schools like YC need

Polish kids are here in huge numbers and work hard so will pull the schools up.

Same here as well. Quick thought - do you live in East Anglia?

I don't want to name my city to avoid outing my location

I'm in Southampton.
Not far from St Marks school that was on Panorama.

The Polish aren't happy with the crappy schools round here, those that have been here long enough are applying for scholarships and assisted places. My friend has been here 8 years, her dc are very bright. Her dd speaks 5 languages fluently and has gained a place at Harvard as they think Britain can't offer a good enough education

morethan
o/t but relevant

about 8 years ago my gym switched from UK to immigrant staff
the first of the Polish cleaners was a lovely quiet girl
I made the club put up a keywords sheet so we could talk to her
after 9 months of treating her like human ( unlike others )
she proudly told me she was leaving for a job in London

"to do what" I asked
"Oh, I have an MBA from Gdansk Uni and have an investment job at UBS"

she had spent those months learning perfect colloquial business English.
She checks out on linkedin

NOTHING beats drive
and selective schools at 11 cut off drive in BOTH directions

Morethan. I am convinced you are right the polish people will ask for higher educational standards .

It is annoying though , that someone who came to England for a better future is calling the country though its educational opportunities.
I have heard a few poles calling the U.K various things ( If it is so "crap" why are they here...

OK, sorry to be nosey. That just sounded so much like a lot of the towns and cities around here.

There are quite a few towns and cities in Lincs, Cambs and Norfolk where the same applies to East European children. Not just Poles, but also a very large number of Latvians and Lithuanians as well.

corus
she was far better bred than they were : she'll just mangle their portfolios!

All I really want from our educational system is that it be difficult (in a good way) and rewarding, every single day.

Talkin please please stop being so patronising .

Talkinpeace. You really must have only ever met a higher Class of Cleaner ( Educational) If you could not see (She Was Having A laugh) Or was Underemployed....