Benefits of selective education?

[AmberTheCat]

I'm aware that I've been cluttering up the 11+ tutoring thread with discussions the OP said she didn't want, on the merits or otherwise of grammar schools in principle, so I'll stop doing that and start my own thread!

So, I genuinely don't get why so many people think separating children by ability (or potential, or however you try to do it) at 11 or even younger is a good thing. Why will they benefit more from that than from properly differentiated teaching in a comprehensive school? And what about the children who aren't selected? How does a selective system benefit them?

Genuine questions. I'm strongly in favour of comprehensive education, but would really like to better understand the arguments against.

That makes no sense - grammar schools don't cost more to run - they just cause a problem for children on the cusp of the selective threshold, or who develop at a different rate.

And why the venom in 'vocational courses are just for the thick'.

My family span from top flight academics, to people who left school at 15 to pursue sport or set up their own businesses. I don't place a value judgement on any of them.

The only person I place a value judgement on is the HT who quietly managed-out my SIL (out of a comp, FWIW) when it became evident she would get 5 A-C at GCSE. She was just as failed by a 'work to the middle' attitude as any top set braniac is.

wouldn't

I'm not talking about the cost of the school
I'm talking about the aftermath of telling kids they are failures at age 11
and thus heading them towards benefits and crime

you cannot take parts of social policy in isolation

Kent's exam results are ever so average
so every gain to grammar school kids is a loss to SecMod kids
resulting in higher unemployment and recidivism

so
what is your plan for the unselected?

Yes, because every single child who doesn't get into grammar school goes on to a life of benefits and/or crime.

procras
unless your SIL is under 28, her experience is utterly irrelevant to what is going on in schools today.
I got to a (now) RG with 5 Bs at GCSE and not much else : unthinkable nowadays ....

Talky- how about something like this?

duchesse
so what steps will you take to ensure not?

unemployment in parts of Kent is horrifically high after all ...

Amber. There is not a table Per se showing this. You just have to look up the highest achieving Comprehensives in middling or Poor areas and look at average attainment achieved by high ability students on the performance tables. You can then compare how high ability students in Grammar Schools compare against high ability students in comprehensive Schools in areas with similar economic characteristics .

For instance compare 2 areas with similar average income one has a comprehensive system the other one has a Grammar system.

A lot of reading the Performance Tables on the Dept Of Education Website is required and looking at graphs of average incomes in areas and educational achievement I am afraid , then writing it down on scrappy paper and comparing the difference.

Here is the website address although I can't link to it because I am in the Dark Ages in Computer Terms. WWW. education. gov. Uk/ schools/performance/.

To ensure not what?

There are criminals in all walks of life.

You don't tell them their failures.

You run a barrage of tests at 11, including VR, maths, music aptitude, sporting aptitude, engineering aptitude & so on. You couple that with schools which have extension in some or all of those areas - and present it as positive selection.

So you don't tell DC 'You missed out on the Grammar', you say " Highchurch school say they'd really love to have you - you aced on xyz" .

Then you provide support to every DC, and have another minor movement point at 13 and major movement point at 16, either for kids who late-bloom in something, or even just for kids that want a change (e.g. if it's not working out socially at a particular school).

What does everybody of that link I posted just below? I think it's a fab solution.

I've seen that before - I also think it is a very good model - because it allows a low-fuss movement for kids whose aptitude develops differently - and also gives the 'protective bubble' that helps the top achievers.

A young family member of mine attends that school. S/he failed the Kent test by a scant 2% but is now thriving in the grammar stream.

That does look like a good solution in many ways, duchesse. There are a couple of things I'm not sure about - I'd prefer a more nuanced approach where kids can be in different sets for different subjects, and it doesn't sound like there's much flexibility to move between the grammar school and the rest of the school at later points - but I think it's a better solution than an entirely separate institution.

You run a barrage of tests at 11, including VR, maths, music aptitude, sporting aptitude, engineering aptitude & so on. You couple that with schools which have extension in some or all of those areas - and present it as positive selection.

with whose money?
and which schools?
bearing in mind that councils are cutting free bus services all over the country

so choice of schools is for those with money
just like it is at the moment

so selective will work for the rich, but not the poor .....

duchesse - I thought it sounded pretty grim. Firstly, I can't see for the like of me why children need to study 13 GCSEs. Secondly, so the grammar stream are treated separately to the other children? This does not exactly sound like a recipe for good relationships within the school. Does the school allow children who were late developers to move into the grammar stream, or is it tough luck as with the 11+? What about the rest? What sort of education does the school offer them?

It just seemed like a ploy for a Kent Sec Mod to try to boost its intake now that it's become an academy and turn itself into a grammar school on the QT. Grammar schools always seem to have the option of booting out children they don't want, whereas the Secondary Moderns had to take everyone.

They are committed to doing at least one cross-school club every week, reading the bumpf - so it's not like they would never interact. I presume sport and such like is integrated.

shrug

Totally outing myself - but DD muses "I like the Grammar school because it is near town - but Queens school is a specialist sports college, and I do love sport..."

And I'm pretty comfortable that - slipping in the "And don't you just lurve computers?? Bushey Meads do extra technology!" I've set up the ground to present the outcome to her as positive selection, however she performs in the tests.

(But she'll get the Grammar. And it'll be a relief all round - because she is too cocky by half at her primary - telling the teacher that she thinks she deserves a holiday, because she did all the stuff everyone else is learning last year (!) )

LaV- the grammar children mix freely with the others. Dear little family member has many friends from primary who are not in the grammar part- a lot from primary school but some new ones. They are timetabled for some subjects with pupils not from the grammar stream. All extra-curricular stuff is shared.

Dfamilymember seems very happy there.

I am not saying Vocational Pathways are better or worse just different.

I had to go though Vocational education and ended up owning 4 Pubs and A Nightclub though that pathway I Started with a Btec First In business studies and a rather Bizarre Travel and Tourism City And Guilds.

All my higher earning and wealthy friends do not have one A level between them and yet all are very successful in their paths. A few of them Male/Female would like to have Higher Level Qualifications though realise that if they had gone that pathway Not one of them would be anywhere near as wealthy or materially successful as they are today.

I also have friend who achieved Post Graduate success and has become a wonderful teacher after being written of at 16 as a "DUMMY" .

The point being because a selective education is right for one kid and not right for another kid does not mean the other kid will not achieve success in another field later in life. What it does mean though is that the state can at least help an Academic child on the first step of their journey . The state could also help a less academic child by linking their education to business , I have mentioned this on page 5 of this thread.

Duchese. I thought the Head of that school was very Anti Grammar schools, when she was head of the Girls School that joined the boys school to form the Academy...

She must be very relived that Gove has outlawed the Grammar Extension then....