Gove is twat

[AgaPanthers]

What a fucking vacuous prick:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2557584/Simon-Cowell-send-child-British-state-school-says-Michael-Gove-offers-tour-X-Factor-mogul.html

Cowell is incredibly wealthy. He can pay to send his child (still in utero) to any school he wants in the world. What is Gove trying to prove by suggesting that he can show him around 'hundreds' of fantastic state schools? That money buys you access to state schooling too?

Shame for those of us that can't afford to buy our way into Gove's handpicked top schools.

"I don't think he will find a better school to send his child to than the British state schools that I can show him."

So how many parents actually have access to these schools? Or is it just a chummy thing thing for multimillionaires?

Fuck off Gove.

How laughable OP that you come along and rant and use obscene language- then say you are in fact opting out of the state system anyway because you are rich enough to be able ( like SC) to afford to send your children to a school of your choice.

And your figures are laughable too.

"The families closest to the school are the richest ones!"

'Not in our area! There are 5 council blocks of flats between us and the two outstanding state primary schools in our area, 3 and 5 streets away respectively. Needless to say, we didn't get a look in.'

Well I always like to look at the data for actual specific schools, it's difficult to comment on unnamed ones.

Though there are so many primary schools and few if any are really nationally renowned, it's much harder to really get a feel for what a school is doing outstandingly, whereas at senior level the 5 GCSE stat becomes an overriding benchmark.

I think in practice a primary school that is in a council estate and perhaps doing an outstanding job with kids from deprived circumstances is not going to be as attractive to the upwardly mobile as a school in a posh area with lots of middle class kids with 60% level 6s on its SATs.

A Level 4 for a child from very difficult circumstances is likely to be more outstanding than a Level 6 from a child from a comfortable middle class backgrounds, but it makes sense if you are from that background to go for the school with lots of other middle class level 6-seeking kids, even if the notional 'value added' is lower than the place where they are doing amazing things with refugee children.

That doesn't of course mean that both schools aren't outstanding, oversubscribed, and with a small catchment area, but the latter school is going to carry the bigger house price premium.

aga Didn't you also just start a thread complaining about how expensive housing is in Guildford?

It sounds as though you are just rather annoyed about perhaps not having a house in a 'naice' area close to a 'naice' school.

As I said above, it sounds as though you have an issue in your local area with a particular school that you wish to get your dc into. Extrapolating from your very particular local circumstances to a national level is quite wrong I would suggest

AgaP
Had you said that you had no option but to send your child to a terrible local school and were green with envy at the likes of SC being able to choose - then stood on a soap box waving your red flag and your copy of Marx then I'd have some respect for you, even though I'd not agree.

But as you are wealthy enough to choose anyway - which we weren't- then I'm afraid your comments are not even worthy of answering any more.

No I wasn't complaining about house prices in Guildford, I was complaining about the people who devote their lives to propping them up. I'm sure you are right that it is not a uniform national problem, but someone like Cowell is far more likely to live in London than Cumbria, so it is relevant, as it is certainly an issue in the London area.

Haha really Alice.

The point is that if you have money you can buy anything that is on sale. Nothing really can stop that.

However state education is not supposed to be a commodity, yet it is clearly bought and sold in estate agents and in practice is one, something Gove appears to endorse, when he talks about hundreds of outstanding schools. What about the thousands that aren't?

If state education were in any way equitable you wouldn't have to hunt out the few percent of great schools, you'd just have your kids and send them off to the local state school whatever it might be.

But no, it's actually an immensely complex process, a lottery stacked against you if you are poor, and a system to be gamed in which you hold all the Aces if you are rich, and one far less honest than saying 'a good private education will cost you £x,000'

This system appears to suit Gove because rich voters can ultimately get what they want, and everyone else can just get what they are given and that's tough.

I actually think Gove completely gets what's wrong with state education.

Most independent secondary day schools are about £14/15K per annum in my neck of the woods.

This system appears to suit Gove because rich voters can ultimately get what they want, and everyone else can just get what they are given and that's tough.

You certainly have an upside down view on things don't you?

Gove is totally spot-on about state schools. They need to pull their socks up.

How can you say thissystem -whatever this is- suits rich voters?

If you listen to Gove, no one is more committed to raising standards in sub standard schools in order to give POOR children from POOR families the education they deserve.

Then I expect a nice queue when I put my flat up for rent in teddington 200m from the best primary in Richmond maybe I should forget putting it with an estate agent just put it on mums net lol .
Totally agree btw I had to scrape together to buy my tiny 2 bed flat in the catchment purely as where I was living before the primary was dire and I figured it was cheaper to move that find prep fees. but I appreciate its not a road open to everyone but I had to work my little socks off to pay the mortgage.

£10k a year?? For secondary? None of the ones I've looked at or any that DH has ever worked at.

The figure I gave covers all independent schools, both primary and secondary. However, I can point you at two independent schools near me where the fees at secondary level are just over £9k. In general independent schools in the north are substantially cheaper than those in the south. Schools that do not offer boarding are cheaper for day (i.e. non-boarding) pupils than those that do.

Do private schools, especially the big, long established ones, have a lot of capital?

Some do, some don't. Some used to have large reserves but have seen them depleted due to low numbers of pupils in recent years. I don't have a source for a simple answer as to the typical level of reserves. However, capital spending by independent schools averages around £1,500 per pupil.

And how about the money that state schools get from central government for things like building work?

Varies enormously from school to school but adds around £1,000 per pupil to the figure I gave previously.

What about academies - how much difference does sponsor money make?

Again, varies enormously. Some sponsors don't provide any money. Others do. ARK, for example, adds roughly 10% to the amount received by the government.

I think OP is worried that state schools might improve to the point that they are competition for fee-paying schools.

You've still not convinced me OP and I still think you've a vile style of expression.

A bit like the Labour lovies who complained about the elitist background of Tory front bench while sending own children to private school.

People have been attracted to and moved to areas specifically to be in good school catchment area for decades, this is not something that has come about recently! This is certainly nothing whatsoever do to with Gove.

Most independent secondary day schools are about £14/15K per annum in my neck of the woods.

We are reasonably close - about 20 miles away - from three real big name boarding schools that everybody here will have heard of. I won't give the names as I don't want to out my location but we are in East Anglia.

As prh47 says above, as they are boarding schools, the day fees are really expensive averaging around £18k per annum

However, there is a really good day school where we live that gets fantastic results and is £9k per year.

Eh?

Of course the OP is right. Most people cannot have the pick of the best state schools because the best performing state schools tend also to be exclusive however covertly by ability (grammar), faith and catchment area. The evidence for this based on number of kids on FSM and with SN has been around for a long, long time so quite surprised by the number of people who seem not to understand this.

People with lots of money like Cowell can have their pick either by going private or paying for tuition or by catchment.

So you've called an elected MP a twat and a vacuous prick in the space of two lines.

I'm guessing you know him personally to pass those thoughts then?

Did you write rude words on the toilet walls at school?

Hi Sarah

Gove doesn't always tell the truth about the state schools he boasts of - in fact he sometimes just makes it up:

www.localschoolsnetwork.org.uk/2013/10/dfe-confirms-gove-has-visited-schools-that-dont-exist/

What I find most interesting on this thread is the way people talk about the 'best' schools as if we all have a shared agreement about what that means, and I really don't think we do. For some people the 'best' school will be the one that enables their child to mix with families from similar backgrounds; for others it will be one that is socially diverse. Some people value schools where children achieve the highest academic results; others are more interested in the value added by the school. Surely we all think that the 'best' school for our children is one that helps them to succeed in the ways that are most important to us, so there will never be universal agreement on what that means.

whendidyoulast

Two out of your three criteria are ridiculous.

The article was about primary schools. Just how many ''grammar'' primary schools are there? How many primary schools limit entry based on faith?

Even if we were talking about secondary schools, there are only a tiny number of grammar schools in the whole country - I think it's about 5% of the total

Oh Feenie, you've outed me!

Seriously though, if the OP called him a terrible liar and linked to your article I can live with that.

But the language used was weird for this complaint and
detracts from the legitimacy of the argument. (Right or wrong)

I was talking about secondary but a significant and growing number of primary schools limit entry based on faith as you put it.

Faith schools and grammar schools are disproportionately represented at the top of the league tables and have disproportionately few children on free school meals.

How can people be so disingenuous?

Amber, I would suggest that most people consider the 'best' schools to be those with the best raw and value added results unless they specifically say the best for diversity or the best for SN or the best for languages.

significant and growing number of primary schools limit entry based on faith as you put it

Schools can prioritise based on faith but they cannot exclude non-faith applicants. Existing non-faith schools cannot become faith schools. Some new free schools are faith schools but, unlike existing faith schools, they must reserve at least 50% of places to be allocated without reference to faith criteria.

The best schools in our LA happen to be located in streets where the houses are £600k plus (this in an LA where house price average is about £180k!!)

I do not understand why buying a school place via one's mortgage is seen as morally superior to buying a place outright (at a fee-paying school).

There are some utterly fantastic state schools in England, unfortunately a very large proportion of the population have no access to them. It's like every other aspect of society- if you have money, you have choice.

I do not believe that is how education should be. All children, regardless of circumstance, should have access to an excellent standard of free education up to graduate level. An educated populace can only be a good thing for a nation.

I was talking about secondary but a significant and growing number of primary schools limit entry based on faith as you put it.

This is not true- they can only allocate 50% and new rules are in the pipeline to make it even harder for some parents to jump on the faith bandwagon ( at the last minute) in order to apply for a place.

I think people are missing the point by concentrating on the details of the op instead of the title- Gove is a twat.

She actually wrote Gove is twat.

Maybe a product of the terrible schools he's trying to shake up?