We haven't had a state vs private debate for a while! What did you think of the Fiona Millar programme on schools?

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Well?

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liked Chris Woodhead's article. From what I have seen so far, I do not think middle class parents can wave a magic wand over failing state schools.

I don't think you can forge a direct link between wanting the best for your children and an 'I'm alright Jack' mentality.

From the moment a child is born, the majority of parents want the best for their children. It's part of being a parent, surely?

But different parents have different ideas of 'the best'. And that extends from how you choose to feed and clothe your baby, to how you choose to educate your child. For some parents 'the best' means going to their local state school. 'The best' means above all, they want their children to learn with children from the broadest range of ability, race, religion or whatever.

For other parents, 'the best' eduction means something else.

So why impose one idea of 'the best' on everyone?

I have to say that I think there are comments on here that just try to simplify the problems with state education just far too much. It is way more complicated than people seem to think and it WILL NOT be solved by people from certain backgrounds sending their child to poor schools. It just doesn't work that way.

I am sorry but I am just NOT prepared to send my daughter to a bad school. That is a simple choice for me becuase I do have that choice. I will not use my daughter as an experiment. Her education is most valuable to me, no one elses. Sorry. That may be selfish but don't we all, in different ways, do our best for our children and want what is right for them. This is just one of the things I have decided is important to me and my family.

As hmb says - we already do our bit for state education, probably more so than many people here. I know hmb believes even more heartily in helping than I do currently too. I am now in my 8th year of teacher, the last 3 being at a failing school. I no longer enjoy it. I have been physically and verbally abused, I don't teach - I manage behaviour. I work until god knows what time most nights to prepare interesting and motivating lessons for my classes for them to be thrown down in dispair during the day. There is no management support, no parental support. Inspectors are in several times each term. I have never yet had an unsatisfactory lesson but the school is failing. My job is not fun, not enjoyable to such an extent I have to get out this summer before I quit teaching as a career full stop. There is no way my daughter would be going to school like that - I would rather keep her at home and do it myself.

As for me, I will still teach. I plan to do supply for a while until another more suitable PT job comes on the scene. I won't desert the state education system and I will keep slogging on with it to try and help, but honestly - there is so much more wrong with state education than people are writing about here. It isn't a quick fix and it isn't solely about giving parents a choice.

I will stop ranting now - promise

agree with miranda but can't contribute properly due to 1 handed typing so will come back laterif pos.

Like ScummyMummy's twins, my DS1 is in the minority, ethnically speaking, at his state primary school, and he loves it so far (started in January. Educationally as well as socially, he is doing fine - he's learned so much since he started - he's beginning to read now which I am finding really exciting.

I too think it is a privilege that he can go to a school like this.

Miranda2, it's really encouraging that you think so positively of your experiences.

One reason I am very loathe to move out of inner London is that I get the impression you don't have to move very far before racism raises its ugly head. I had to go out to Broxbourne for work purposes the other day, got a taxi from Broxbourne station, was chatting to the taxi driver who was Turkish and used to live just near me in Hackney - he said that his kids were experiencing a lot of racism and prejudice at school there which they did not suffer in Hackney - and Broxbourne is only just outside London. That made me really sad.

I've switched sides on this debate since ds1 was born. When he was born we started to look at private schools (I'm ashamed to say I didn't even look at the state school- just assumed it would be crap, although it always looked pretty welcoming whenever I went inside (to vote etc)). He passed his little interview (which makes a mockery of th selection process but never mind) and had his name down for a fairly unpressurised, pretty much non-selective private school (I say pretty much as in theory it was first come first served, but there was still the interview with the head). it did seem like a lovely school.

Anwyay then it became clear that he was autistic and so we had to go trooping back into the state system. And what a lovely surprise. The school is diverse, the parents I have met seem very "normal" (I haven't met all that many as ds1 goes in at different times). The school was in special measures a few years ago, but new head and its now improving. It's a really caring community and I hope to god ds2 gets in. I have no idea what their academic results are like- and to be honest I'm not remotely interested. The work displayed on the walls looks good, they have lots of extra stuff like trips to the park, and fire engines coming to vist and special lunches (eg sushi!). I can't see what a private school would provide that this school doesn't, except maybe a feeling of exclusiveness. Rather like my gym membership. So I'm stunned. Once again autism has changed my view of pretty much everything. I would send my child to a private school (well ds2) but it would only be a reluctant second choice now- complete switch from before.

Now I know not all schools are like this. In some areas there are only truly dreadful schools and of course lecturing parents about moral responsibility is wrong and a waste of time (improve the schools first and people will go- it can't happen any other way round).

I suspect the gap between private and state gets wider at secondary level. And I suspect the ga is much larger i places like london than down here.

Being lazy again! This thread's too long to read right now but I read an article by Fiona Millar in our local paper a month or so ago (she and Alistair live nearby). It was well written but merely her opinion, I couldn't find any facts or evidence.

Tallulah, the same happened at the very academic grammar that I went to, it turned comprehensive and within a year the results were very poor. Existing grammar pupils failed to do as well as had been predicted and should have done. All values and discipline seemed to go out the window overnight.

It was a lovely school, now it has a poor reputation and lots of problems it never had before.

My two have been to 2 state and 2 private, they both prefer the private schools. The teachers are fantastic, caring, genuinely interested in their pupils and their achievements. The state school they were at was just as successful in terms of results, but DD says you cannot begin to comprehend the difference until you have experienced it oneself. She is really sad to be leaving her independent school this summer. How many pupils invite their teachers to their 18th birthday parties because "they are the people who have been specill in my life and helped me be the person I am today" from one pupil recently.

Her class sizes are 3 for Physics A level, 4 for German, 6 for Maths and 6 for French, maximum 10 in other subjects.

I don't mind admitting that at times the fees have been a stuggle, ( self employed) but my children are very happy and much happier than when they were at state secondary, so it has been worth every penny.

Alibubbles in second year sixth form at my state comprehensive school, several of the teachers had parties at their own homes for their A-level students - I remember them really well and with lots of fondness! Good teachers aren't exclusive to the private sector.

going to back up dino here as well. In my state 6th form class sizes were a max of 12 (and my French class had 5 in and Oxford entrance class sizes ranged between 2 and 5- yes our state school did provide extra coaching for free!)

Mine gave me extra free Oxford entrance exam tuition.

Miranda2, you say it isn't fair that some people can buy private education...well, it isn't fair that some people can have a new Mercedes, or go to the theatre twice a week, or eat out at nice restaurants, or have a big house with a bedroom for each child and a great big garden for their kids to play in. What's the solution?
I cannot envisage being able to pay for private education - my stepdaughter is at a private school but her stepfather pays the fees (dh used to pay half until her mother asked for CSA contributions on top and they money ran out). We can't do the same for ds and anyway, I don't think it makes much difference at primary level anyway when parental input is all-important. I do worry about sending him to a local secondary. They really are DIRE and scary too - not to mention incredibly over-subscribed. I think we will move to look for a better state school at that stage, if possible.
I do not believe that the absence of the tiny numbers of middle class parents are causing schools to fail. That's clear nonsense. A few parents opting for private education did not create the massive class sizes, disillusioned and exhausted teachers, crumbling buildings and lack of playing fields that combine to put people off state education. It seems very convenient for a New Labour insider to blame the 'middle-class parents' - those mythical bogeymen - for the failiure of the education system. I tend to agree with PPH on this one, and we can't (or maybe won't - because I don't want to work all hours anymore) afford private education.

Have come late to this. Very interesting. I did see the programme and thought that some of Fiona Millar's points were spot on.

I don't think FM was arguing that anyone should sacrifice their children on the altar of their own principles - simply that if we had a single education system, in which everyone had an investment and there was no opportunity either to buy your way out or 'play' the system as at present, it would be a fairer and more effective system for ALL children. Utopian and idealistic but I agree.

IMO it is a huge problem that the most privileged classes in our society have no stake in the state education system because they are able to opt out. And it is simply not true that private schools are not a drain on other tax payers - private schools have a charitable status that enables them to keep the cost of places artificially low.

I think FM made some good points about the perceptions of private (selective) vs state schools and the relative levels of achievement. One of the most interesting bits was when she looked at a school in Lambeth which would be in the top 5 in the country, if schools were measured on how much a pupil progresses educationally from their first year at school to the year they leave. But from results league tables this school would be perceived as doing badly.

Mind you, my own comp was a grim place. Oxbridge coaching? You are having a laugh. We got our Ucca forms distributed and that was it. It was a secondary modern where there was still a grammar school, only they'd removed the exam in order to make it all comprehensive - only it clearly wasn't equal at all - they just sprinkled a few bright pupils into our school and kept it all the same as before. Where the grammar almost certainly had Oxbridge coaching, we had typing lessons.

Aloha - I don't think you either can or should compare education to having a nice car or going to restaurants. I don't think a good education shouls be a 'luxury' item available to those who have the most money in our society.

Aloha,

Mine was an ex-secondary modern too, and all the middle-class pushy parents sent their kids to the former grammer rather than the school I went to. I was the first person ever to apply to Oxbridge so that's why they gave me coaching.

Exactly jimmychoos.

Thanks for that, jampot. That's interesting to know. I do think you're right about it being damaging to hold a kid back because a sibling is not progressing as fast but, as a parent, it can already be a minefield keeping both my twins feeling confident and happy when there are marked differences in their skill levels, I find. For example, one of mine is streets ahead physically and the other tends to look on at him bombing about on his scooter or bike and be a bit sad that he's not as fast. Obviously I wouldn't stop them both riding bikes because one is so much more able and I do tell my speedy gonzales how great he's doing, while encouraging my less speedy one by talking about how much he's improved. I do also occasionally suggest that it might be nice if they cycled at the same speed for a little while and that can work well too. I guess your folks may have made a mistake in being so hazy about whether grammar was an option for you in the first place. It sounds like they got your hopes up by letting you take the exam but then didn't follow through by explaining their reasons for you not proceeding to the school. Is it possible that you failed the exam and they didn't want to hurt your feelings by telling you so? I guess it must have brought back all sorts of memories when your daughter took the exam, hey?

Hulababy- I think it's easy to get a really skewed perspective when you're working in a very shite school. You can end up generalising the problems there onto the system as a whole. I have been there (in support staff role, not teaching) and I do know how utterly morale sapping and horrible it can be. Not every state school is like that. I hope you can bail out of there soon.

Jimmychoos, but my point is the 'it's not fair' argument seems pointless to me. What are you going to do about it? It's obviously more important to make the state schools better than to stop people buying private education, don't you think? It's more important to provide decent provision of social housing than to prevent people buying 5bed houses with gardens. There are people on Mumsnet who live in terribly inadequate homes like tiny one bed flats with no garden (Nutcracker and Pie for example). I live in an ordinary London three bed terrace with a garden. Not fair? Probably, but it won't help Pie for me to sell my house and live in a one bed flat. What might help her is more social housing for families.

I didn't know that private schools have charitable status. Is that true?
BTW, the school that Fiona and AListair's kids go to isn't that good and has bullying, gang problems, maybe how their children are doing is more to do with the parents I wouldn't stick my neck out to get on the waiting list there.

Aloha,

Your three-bedroomed house isn't by its very existence making it more difficult for more social housing for families to be provided, but I do think that selective education (particularly private education) is by its very existence perpetuating unfairness and class divisions in this country.

When I went to Oxford I was expecting it to be full of very intelligent students who were there because they loved their subject and intellectual endeavour in general. I thought I'd have lots of stimulating conversations with fellow students outside formal tutorial settings.

I was horribly disappointed to find that lots of people there were actually not that bright at all, and certainly not passionate about their chosen subject of study. Yes, many of them had fantastic A-levels (I had an A and two Bs, and was described without irony as an under-achiever). But it seemed to me that they'd achieved those results largely because of very intensive teaching designed specifically to get them through the exams.

Now all that might not matter in itself (so what if I discovered I could have more intellectual chats in the pub on the council estate back home?) BUT by getting into Oxbridge those students had a massive advantage in the job market. Is it really to the benefit of the country or society as a whole to have mediocre second-class people, rather than the genuinely talented, promoted in this way?

agree about the coaching in order to pass exams dinosaur. I managed to get an A in A-level Economics purely and simply by learning everything parrot fashion. Private schools are certainly more geared up to teaching in order to pass exams. (I went to local comp BTW but brother went to private) Academic achievement and exam results are always held up as the best measure of intelligence but it often just means someone has been taught how to pass an exam.

come on, dino! you said you had specialist coaching yourself, lol