We haven't had a state vs private debate for a while! What did you think of the Fiona Millar programme on schools?

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Well?

And they're not streamed - only one class in some subjects - maybe that is why they mix. OTOH, they are choosing to be there and want to work.

I've have zilch experience of private schools, so I can't answer dinosaur's question. I wish our state secondary schools were like the one suedonim mentions, or we had a choice (even if was flawed) of some good local state secondaries like janh has in her area.

I have looked at your list, ks, in your most recent post. I could write a very similar list for my son's church school.

We don't have a house system though there is a system of bonus points, but perhaps not so much fostering team spirit.

No, children aren't told to shake hands with people on first meeting, but they are expected to hold open doors, say 'hello can I help you' to strangers in the school etc.

Effort is rewarded very publically at the school, too. Each friday assembly, all children who have gained any award outside school - sport, music etc - can go up to collect it from the headmaster. These aren't just for activities directly connected with the school, parents let the head know and give him the certificates to present. Sometimes it seems half the school are up collecting something or other.

I can contrast this with the two state primaries my son attended.

I would say there was less emphasis placed on publically and formally recognising effort - no long assemblies full of award-giving.

But one thing make is really difficult to form comparisoms and that's size. The state primaris were 2 or 3 times as big as my sons church school. The church school has 22 -24 children per class as opposed to 32 - 34 in the state school.

Consequently, I feel there is a closer community at my son's much smaller church school. Áll teachers know all pupils by name at least. All pupils know each other very well. Most parents who are active at the school know most of the pupils - not just those in their child's class. There is a strict uniform code. All pupils, from reception to year 6, share some of their playtime together and share the same playground. Most school activites - sports day, music events, religious events, etc are shared by the whole school at the same time. The only separation is between infants and juniors.

As a result, things like social confirmity, sense of team spirit, manners, sense of responsiblity towards others inside the school, confidence when talking to adults within the school, are IMO more in evidence than what I saw at my son's state schools. This difference isn't always for the better I hasten to add. But lots of the difference boils down to size - and the leadship from the head. And the head has more power at this small school, even though
their 'empire' is smaller, precisely because he knows everyone so well and his influence can reach further.

Dinosaur, if I was to pay for private education it would be size of class, and ratio of adults to pupils that would be the main attraction. In my limited experience, this factor has far reaching effects.

But in the sixth form they are effectivly selected before they come into the school. These would be the children who have done best/enjoyed their school the most. They will all be from the top 1/3- 1/2 of the school. That is rather like saying that the children who pass the 11 + mix well with children from different primaries. These children will not be mixing with kids who have scraped a couple of F grades at GCSE. They are still mixing with their intelectual peers

Kids with 10 As are mixing with kids with 5 Cs. It's as good as it gets round here.

Do you think there shouldn't be streaming then, hmb?

To be quite honest, it depends. There is evidence to sugest that the worst achieving groups do best in mixec ability settings, and that the brightest are not affected. I fully agree with the former, but my own school experiences make me raher less trusting of the latter

In a perfect world, with classes of less than 20, with a TA in every class, and full ICT support in all lessons, with photocopying etc done by a support person, and more time in the timetable, unsetted classes would be a good idea. As things stand they would be a nightmare, where the most and least able children would suffer.

It is just that in my experience there is very little mixing in comprhensive schools. People like to be with people who are like themselves

nobody has yet mentioned class sizes. As a secondary state school teacher my KS3 classes are 31 or 32, my GCSE classes around 25 and current A level group has 19 kids in it. My friend at a nice nearby private school who teaches the same subject has 8 girls in her A level set. This is in North London.So that is what you pay for if you send your kids private - a bit of Teacher's time!

spot on Donnie, my classes are the same size as yours. In the school my kids go to, fee paying, the class size is much smaller. Dd is in a class of 12 with a teacher and a TA.

I dream of class sizes that small! What you couldn't do with that few kids in each class.

But current plans are for classes of 80 per teacher with more untrained staff to enforce dicipline. Yer, right. Guess which bit of that will happen, and which bit would lack the funding.

I haven't actually watched the programme yet ( have taped it) but can categorically state that I would have no hesitation in sending dd to a private school as and when the time comes if we weren't happy with the state offerings( and if we could afford it!). I suppose I am the type of person Fiona Millar despises. I can't comment on her telly prog but her keep fit weekend Guardian column is a load of old shite! wouldn't mind her and Al's joint salary though......

Yes, Donnie, she would hate me too. After all we just work in the comprehensive system. We can't possibly care as much as she does, can we??

a class of 12 hmb! how wonderful.I bet she feels really secure and listened to in such a small group. To all those Whitehall fogeys who say that class sizes make no difference I say - you do it!

And her class is mixed abilty, and the school is the most ethnicaly diverse in the region! It is non selective, except that you have to be able to pay, and that is a selection. Her class mates include those, like her who have reading ages 3-4 years ahead of their age, and those with SEN. It is a real mixed ability class. She loves it, and I don't regret paying, I salve my concience enought in work, thanks!

yes, from a parents perspective, I agree on smaller class sizes helps lots. And that's private schools' main selling point for me.

In my last message I did ramble on about size mattering. I was contrasting my son's church primary with his former state primaries. There are 22 or so children in his class now - what a difference that makes.

I guess you'd say I have deserted that state system strictly speaking. It is very probable that my son will go to a state secondary, though. Possibly a grammar school, if things turn out that way, so striclty speaking I'm opting out again.

However, in my area I am in a minority, so I have to laugh when I hear people say that 'middle classes are deserting the state system in droves'. Perhaps in Camden they are, but not around here. There are plenty of middle class families here who send their children to state schools. Their parents work in the public sector or are teachers, social workers, health professionals etc. People who live around here are not on huge salaries. This is not a trendy part of London and does not as a rule attract the more fashionable and comfortably off end of the middle class, but to all intents and purposes many people are middle class. They have what I would call middle class occupations, attitudes and aspirations. Perhaps Fiona and others like her are talking about a more monied middle class or a more upper middle class, and forget that not all middle class people are like that.

ks, I was being a bit tongue in cheek there She is so obviously better than me because she cares. I am a low life that send her children to a private school, so I must be elitist scum! The fact that I work in the state sector, work my arse off trying to provide the best education I can for the kids that I teach will count for nothing because I have refused to make my kids suffer for a set of principle based on some rather dodgy (and ofensive) 'logic'.

BK I'm atheist and ds1 goes to a faith school. We hope ds2 will as well.

There was an interesting thing on the Jeremy Vine show a while ago. 2 girls swapped places for the day. Then one who usually went to a state school swapped places with her privately educated friend, Both agreed that the state educated girl had to work harder and that the state school was stricter, and that maths was harder at the state school. The private school had better facilities though.

I was quite surprised. The schools were in London.

That surprises me too, Jimjams. That said, we do work the kids hard in our Comp, just some of them don't bother to do any of the work we set! But the hard working kids probably work as hard as any in the private sector.

That doesn't surprise me really. There was maths tutor on the JV show as well a while ago saying that most of his students were from private schools. Not because they were pushier, just to get them up to exam standard.

I think that it also depends if the private school is in the same area as grammer schools. In our area a lot ok kids take the 11+. If they pass they go to the excellent selective schools that we have in this area, and their parents give a great sigh of relief!

If they fail, a lot of the parents will then put their hand in their pocket and pay for them to go to the local private schools, which are not selective on ability, but cash! So the local private school are sort of negativly selective IUSWIM.

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My secondary school was totally mixed ability until 3rd year (year 9 now?) and then streamed for most of the more traditionally "academic" subjects at GCSE level but not for PE, art, music, textiles, home ec, drama, cdt etc. Because we were with each other for three whole years before streaming occurred and because there were quite a few subjects where setting didn't happen at all, it was quite hard not to mix with kids of all different abilities. It was actually a feature of some of the teaching to team up kids at different levels to work together. When this was done well it was really helpful for everyone.
I wouldn't say I was a great mixer full stop- I've always preferred smaller friendship groups- but I did like, speak to and form friendships at various levels with lots of different people at school. I do take your point about many people liking to be with people who are similar to themselves, hmb, but in a way I think that makes it even more important that there are a wide variety of people to work alongside. At least you get to know that not everyone is the same in terms of advantage, ability, race, faith etc, even if you gravitate towards what you know.

great article. except chris obviously did not benefit from a classical education, it was a greek lesson that the inorexable fm sat in on at westminster school...