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Original poster

We haven't had a state vs private debate for a while! What did you think of the Fiona Millar programme on schools?

528 replies

WideWebWitch · 05/03/2004 20:27

Well?

OP posts:
hmb · 06/03/2004 20:29

My two go to a private school and 15% of the pupils have SEN. Many of these are dyslexic (but that is aslo true in the state school where I work), but they also have ASD children, dyspraxic children, and others. The local state school, by comparison has only 1.6% SEN. Parents who's children are rejected by that state school are informed not to appeal if their child had SEN, and I am sure that breaks the DDA!

So it isn't a case of private bad, state good re SEN.

Original poster
WideWebWitch · 06/03/2004 20:33

Nope, this hasn't kicked off bk Aloha, I know what you think about faith schools and completely agree with you. Jimjams, yes, I agree with you too re the govt not wanting people to use cars, but failing to invest in public transport and not wanting people to send their kids private but failing to invest in education. Completley stupid innit? Ks, lol re LEA!

OP posts:
Janh · 06/03/2004 20:42

Faith schools. Hm. In our area there are:

  1. selective grammar
  2. large "county secondary" in town (but now called a technology college or something)
  3. small "county secondary" catering mostly for the rural villages
  4. large Catholic comprehensive with a much wider catchment than the others

There is also a good C of E comprehensive which local churchgoers are eligible for, if their vicar will vouch for them, but it's a long bus ride away. (There is a nearer, slightly less good, C of E comp but for some reason nobody here seems to bother with that one.)

I don't understand how funding works for church schools, but if you're not Catholic you don't get into the Catholic comprehensive - and even if you are Catholic, but send your kids to a non Catholic primary, you're at the bottom of the pile. If a Catholic child takes and fails the grammar exam they won't get in until hell freezes over. (I know a Catholic parent with kids at state primary who thought this most unfair - ie believed that her kids should get 2 bites of the cherry.) But state money is funding this school? So why shouldn't my kids go there? They live nearer than a lot of kids who do go.

What's the difference between VC and VA, please?

bossykate · 06/03/2004 20:48

aren't they going to the grammar?

ScummyMummy · 06/03/2004 20:48

Wow, janh! So where would my two go if I lived near you, I wonder? I want them to go to a non-faith based comprehensive state school. Do county schools fit that remit or are they what used to be called secondary moderns? I've never been sure what they are!

bossykate · 06/03/2004 20:48

seriously though, it is an issue for you? sounds like there is lots of other provision...

Janh · 06/03/2004 20:49

Um - yes -

But that's not the point! If they could have gone to the Catholic comp I'd rather have sent them there.

Snot fair.

bossykate · 06/03/2004 20:51

ok, this is a serious question, why would anyone who is not religious want their kids to go to a religious school? leaving aside the problematic question of funding for the moment...

ks · 06/03/2004 20:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Janh · 06/03/2004 20:54

scummy, yes, county schools are "sec mod", when there is also a selective grammar.

Our county schools get relatively good results, actually, and have much better non-academic facilities (the country school is very hot on dance and drama, the town one offers eg astronomy GCSE and has its own little observatory) BUT the ethos is different and a kid has to be quite determined or have a strong peer group to want to work hard. The ethos at the Catholic school is generally more study oriented.

Janh · 06/03/2004 20:56

bk, I would want mine to go to the Catholic school because it is the only comp in the area.

ScummyMummy · 06/03/2004 20:57

Hi bk. Ideally, I would definitely not want mine in a religious school but would definitely want them in a comprehensive. So I think there would be issues around choosing for me if I lived where janh does, if I understand correctly?

Janh · 06/03/2004 20:57

Would have wanted that is (bit late now!)

ScummyMummy · 06/03/2004 20:58

Thanks, janh.

bossykate · 06/03/2004 21:07

thanks, janh, for explaining, i didn't get the bit about the county school being the "secondary modern". well, the rc school is not truly a comp is it? so i think your quarrel should be with the grammar school system, shouldn't it?

ks, i think that goes back to my point earlier. it seems people want to have their cake and eat it too. express amazement that people who go to church actually get priority when it comes to a religious school! or don't entertain the possibility that the religious angle has something to do with the high results. or reject religion, but don't mind their kids being immersed in a religion centred ethos during the school day. i still don't get it, i'm afraid. is it just c of e because british people feel they have a birthright there because it is the state religion?

dinosaur · 06/03/2004 21:14

This is a serious question.

What is it that those who send their children to private schools think that they will get from those schools that they won't get in the state sector?

I know that might sound simplistic but I am genuinely interested.

Is it purely for better academic results? If so, what would be considered a successful outcome, from an academic point of view, from a private sector school?

Or are there other factors at play? Is fear of bully in state schools a big issue?

To what extent do social/class considerations come into play? Is there an element of parents wanting their children to mix with other children who are also middle class etc? In other words, is the homogeneity that Scummy Mummy notes actually an appeal of private school for a lot of people?

Janh · 06/03/2004 21:16

bk, the RC school is truly a comp. It takes all Catholic kids, full stop - no selection (except by geography). Last summer it had 3 of the top 5 in the country for Eng Lit GCSE, but also has kids who don't get any, and is very good with SEN too.

Janh · 06/03/2004 21:22

And it has fantastic music provision, with an excellent choir, but anybody who wants to can be in the choir, not just the musical ones.

ScummyMummy · 06/03/2004 21:26

I think my main beef would be that, as aloha says lower down the thread, religious schools are funded primarily by the state and so, arguably, should allow equal access to all children in their community whose parents want a place. Having said that, in theory I would not be one of those parents for some of the reasons you cite, bk. Unusually, I am surrounded by religious state primaries and, as you know, I think, I was very concerned that my boys wouldn't get places at either of the 2 non-religious community primaries both of which are over subscribed, like all of the schools around here. So in practice I did apply to one of the religious schools as insurance for that reason. At the end of the day I guess parents have to be pragmatic about choosing from what is available in their area, according to what they feel is most important for their children. I was lucky in the end to get places for them in the local community primary, which was what I wanted.

Janh · 06/03/2004 21:31

scummy, if all the primary schools are over-subscribed in your area, is the LEA doing anything about it?

ScummyMummy · 06/03/2004 21:32

Sorry- that last post was answering bk. Thread seems to have moved on a bit since then!

ScummyMummy · 06/03/2004 21:36

Yes, janh. My boys' school has a new reception class opening at the end of the month! There are terrible problems London-wide around kids without school places, unfortunately. I meet quite a lot of kids in this situation through work and it's really awful for all concerned.

miggy · 06/03/2004 21:37

Dinosaur-my children go to a private "christian" school because ;

  1. Good academic standards and high levels discipline
  2. Better facilities for sports/outdoor play, lots of bracing outdoor activities! Plus Choir/orchestra/active drama dept that our small village school could not provide
  3. General grounding in christian values ie charity/being kind to others/respect for others etc
  4. lack of bullying-DS1 is an odd child and I feel would be badly bullied in a large state school (secondary)
  5. Specialist subject teaching from an early age eg french/latin/greek/music
  6. not too much bothering with KS1/2
  7. flexiblity in terms of pre and afterschool care which saves on childcare,could attend from 8am-6pm even in the holidays (mine dont by the way!) The school has a dyslexia unit and there are SEN pupils. There are few students from other ethnic groups but that would be the same at any local state school.
ScummyMummy · 06/03/2004 21:38

Interesting questions, dino.

bossykate · 06/03/2004 21:40

janh, i suppose i wouldn't say a school was truly comprehensive if it is allowed to select - even on religious grounds. you don't have a problem with grammar schools?

scummy, i have a lot of sympathy for the argument that if schools are state funded they should be open to all - i think the logical outcome of this is that state aid for religious schools would be abolished, not that the intake for religious schools be widened. i don't think this argument needs a lot of embellishment either - www expressed it v. well further down.

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