Looking for a secondary school with excellent music facilities Berkshire/surrey/Hampshire that is non-selective academically? [[edited by MNHQ]]

[Zivajones]

Help, our 11 yr old is lazy academically(comatose !) yet driven musically, violin grade 3/electric guitar grade 2 & singing grade 2, we can't find a non selective academically challenging school that offers enough music for him state or independent. We have an outstanding state secondary close by but not enough music & the private schools with great music facilities seem to all be academically selective!. Does anyone know of any schools with fab music facilities.... In Berkshire/Surrey/ Hampshire. Thanks

Sorry the title should have read non selective academically lol

Seaford college?. Don't really know it as worked there on a summer scheme!

His grades are good but not particularly high for music going into secondary. Quite a few independent schools boast about their music facilities but most around Surrey would expect 11+ or some kind of entrance exams.

Is he in state or independent at the moment? If hes in Yr 6 then you will have already had to select his secondary and most of the entrance exams for independents will be taking place in the next couple of weeks.

You may find that a prep school going up to 13 may have spaces but you would need to have an idea of where he would be heading after that.

Where abouts are you as those counties are very large, particularly when talking about state schools and if your application would be considered 'late'

Guildford County school has a good reputation for music, though music is being squeezed in the state school curriculum.

Independents - Cranleigh, King Edwards (Witley), St Edmunds, St Georges (Weybridge), Hurst Lodge (think its near Ascot), Reeds (Cobham), St Johns (Leatherhead), Churchers (Petersfield) certainly talk about their music but I don't know how selective they are at 11.

Can I throw the cat amongst the pigeons and say that maybe those grades are certainly good and impressive- but don't necessarily demonstrate -ahem- a really well above average talent in music at 11? If you'd said 'Grade 6 in violin, learning for 2 years' I think that an exclusively musical direction, at the expense of focused academia might be wise, but I'm not so sure, in such a relatively young person, that you should write off (not that you have!) an academic push in favour of focusing on music.

Bear in mind that, these days, just about all private schools are academically selective in that they want DC who can cut the mustard across the board, if not shine.

IS your DS lazy but academically clever, should he put his mind to it (ask his teachers: we parents are notoriously bad at evaluating this!) or is he, like most DC, academically average? Are you thinking that 'At least, though he's not academically gifted, he's really good at music therefore we must push that'? I'd say 11 is a bit young to state that (though you're not, I get that!).

I am no musician (tops- Grade 5 classical guitar, aged 14; grade 2 violin aged 12) but music and that knowledge I gained serve me well as an adult but form no part of my career!

And, just for the record, a friend has DC at The Purse (as we call it) in Cambridge. Grade 7 at 12 among the musically able DC at a not-particularly-musically-oriented private is considered 'Pretty Good', not 'Feck me!'

Sorry, another cat for pigeon frightening. In these parts Year 6 kids who go on to get scholarships are usually grade 5-6 on clarinet, flute etc plus usually the trumpet or sax as well at grade 4-5. The music scholars are also very diligent academically anyway but also super dedicated to keep up with all the concerts and festivals etc on top of normal school plays, sports etc. This said, you are not chasing any money so they will always welcome boy violinists!
Ref facilities, once space is less of a premium once you hit the leafy suburbs and rolling shires the music facilities are usually very modern with amazing architecture, acoustics and purpose built in the last 5-10 years.

Ours who won music scholarships at 12 were on levels like 2 grade 7s at age 12 and one with a grade 8 and 2 grade 7s, not a 2 and 3 which in the private sector I am afraid is not at all high levels for age 11.

It would be interesting to know if music exam levels regarded as really good in state schools are 4 grades lower than in private schools and why that might be so? Low expectations? Less practice?

"It would be interesting to know" if you are stuck up your own arse, LauraBridges. Or do you think all state schools and private schools are the same?

LauraBridges I think you may find your answer to the second part of your question ("why might that be so") in the notion that an enthusiastic range of interests in children is valued by some parents, and even some schools, without necessarily tying it in to an ambitious (and often parent-centred rather than child-centred) framework of quantifiable, certificated achievement. I'm going to resist the temptation to yoke that to a division between private and state schools as I don't have any hard data to do so, so I'd be surmising. And possibly slightly rude.

OP, might I suggest that you ask MNHQ if they can amend your title? I'm slightly concerned that you might get a flood of well meaning information about selective schools, because posters do miss corrections, particularly perhaps if they are reading on smartphones (or maybe that's just me)!

dd2 is in the process of applying for scholarships - she's in year 6 currently - she has grade 3 violin/grade 2 singing and that is only worht something as part of an 'all-rounder' award

everywhere (even academically non selective) want grade 5 plus another instrument at 11

I don't mind as an all rounder would be great but just to let you know that sadly your sons grades are not outstanding

Most schools will consider you if you have distinctions to grade 4 in violin or french horn or something really tough

There are three girls in her year who are studying grade 6 recorder, plus a grade 5 piano/grade 3 recorder/grade 2 singing

Its normal in prep schools I think

Ha ha laurabridges that's funny

Grades are grades it doesnt matter whether state or private

Sorry, I said 'most schools will consider you'

thats rpobably not true if you are in a very cutthroat area

As others have said, the only children I know who have got pure music awards at 11 have been grade 7

Regarding grades, you have results only for the exams you were put in for. Your playing level may be a lot higher, and potential even more so. That was so for one of my DC (grade 3 violin at 11 in fact... don't sniff) and it didn't hold her back. If schools audition, they decide on what they hear not on what it says on a piece of paper. Zivajones, his current teachers will know what his playing level is and also whether he has that all-important potential to do well if he puts the effort in. It comes down to practice in the end so the commitment has to kick in and some point though, the sooner the better.

at some point

yes true one school did say at 11 they are looking for potential BUT if they accept grade 3 violin and the papers say grade 5 they have to be able to prove that no grade 5 calibre children applied

although as I have said they do look more kindly on the fiddle than the recorder

I don't think the OP was asking for music scholarships, just schools that had a good music base for children who want to learn.

In case you are left in any doubt, we looked at music scholarships for dd1 who had grade 4 piano and doing grade 5 singing, who is naturally very musical (perfect pitch etc) and found that most were saying at least two instruments and the main one had to be at least grade 5, in our area. However this isn't true of all areas, and if we'd been happy to consider boarding, there were a few she would have had a reasonable chance.
BUT imo also most of the music scholarships were not really worth it either. Some of them were as little as "free lessons in your main instrument" (which we wouldn't have wanted to change teacher so didn't want) and "we expect the music scholars to take part in choir and orchestra and any other music things". So for the price of a 30 minute lesson which we wouldn't want once a week, she would be expected to do probably at least an hour and a half (assuming 45 minutes each) of stuff for the school. (she'd probably want to do them anyway).
Didn't sound like a bargain to me.

I don't think Hurst Lodge near Ascot is selective, and it puts performing arts (which I assume includes music) high up. However I haven't heard brilliant reports about it.
Some of the smaller private schools may not be terribly selective, although they officially do an entrance exam. I have a friend whose dc go to one, and her dd is badly dyslexic, so the head talked through the exam with her and made a decision as to whether "the school would benefit her" rather than on her general academic ability. So if he's above average ability, it's worth having a look round.

Why don't you send your son to the outstanding state secondary and top up the music with extra curricular activites. The Surrey Arts service runs lots of extra curricular music activites. Why don't you visit your local secondary and see what it offers in terms of musical opportunites. You may well be pleasently surprised. My son has had loads of music opportunities at his comprehensive.

I think that some posters are being a bit mean about he OP son. My son is very similar in that he got to grade 2 guitar at the age of ten after 18 months of lessons. He sings in a church choir and on the gifted and talened register at his secondary school for singing, although he is not academically gifted. A child who has been hot housed on the violin since the age of five will be ahead at the age of eleven of a child who took up an instrument aged nine.

Have you looked at the Howard of Effingham, surrey. I believe that they offer great music opportunities as its a large state school.

I agree with the idea of looking outside the school for musical opportunities if possible, rather than just relying on provision within school. Is there a reason why you can't do this? eg difficulties with transport or unwillingness to do/difficulty doing courses (often residential) in school holidays? Or is your thinking more along the lines of finding a school that will offer something that sparks your ds's interest, in the hope this will make him more favourably disposed towards the school in general and maybe get him to work harder at other school subjects?...

those music grades look like he'd fit right in here
www.bohunt.hants.sch.uk/Downloads/Expressive%20Arts/Clubs%20Timetable.pdf

Hi Craggy, my point was that exam grade does not necessarily = stage child is at. The OP will only know what that is by talking to current teachers. Please do ask if you need to know.

When the school say 'grade5+' they presumably 'mean' stage rather than piece of paper? I'm not sure how far they have to justify who they take, it might vary. My niece from overseas is currently auditioning for schools here and has no grades whatsoever as they don't do them where she lives - mind you she might not get anywhere! (As an aside, junior conservatoires look at what the child can do rather than pieces of paper, DD auditioned on diploma pieces although at that stage I think she had 'only' grade 7, but it was how she did in the audition that mattered - she got a scholarship which she sure wouldn't have got if they'd looked only at the grade 7 certificate. I thought schools worked the same way? Please correct me because I'd hate to spout misleading rubbish.)

From Eton's website:

The standard generally expected of candidates will be Grade V to VIII on their principal instrument, but though high grades in Associated Board examinations are often good indications of musicianship, we shall also be looking for a thorough grounding in technique and for musical potential. If Associated Board examinations are taken we shall look more for high marks than high grades. Candidates will be required to play two contrasting pieces on their principal instrument and one piece on their second instrument, to read at sight, and to do ear tests and scales appropriate to their technical standard. They may also sing a solo. Accompanists will be provided by Eton. (Candidates may bring their own accompanist provided the Director of Music is informed at the time of the Scholarship application.)

My guess is that this approach is fairly typical.

The OP didn't say he was necessarily gifted/ talented - she said he was driven. Entirely different.

I agree with others that county music groups are generally at least as good a way to develop his ensemble playing and if he continues to be driven in music then he would probably would want to join them anyway. Also means a wider circle of friends

Yes, grovel that is typical (3 of my sons won music scholarships at age 12/13 with grades 7 or 8) and indeed if a child had never sat an exam but was playing to their standard that would be considered too. It is made clear in all the schools' rules but in general most of the children sitting will have a grade 6 or 7 x 2 at age 12 plus their grade 5 theory too which is a pretty tough exam to get at 10 or 11. That is the competition faced at that age. 11+ scholarships are obviously a slightly lower standard as are 2 years before.