Grammar Schools : the debate is about what happens NOW

[TalkinPeace]

In the 20 years after WW2, when the baby boomers were kids, grammar schools did amazing things for social mobility.

But then, self preservation kicked back in
and since 1970, selective state schools have become progressively less inclusive
to the extent today where the (grammar school educated head of OFSTED) says
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25386784

the death knell has been rung
as it has for DB pensions (another great Baby Boomer nest lining idea)

so lets bite the bullet and put equal resources into all schools and reduce the carbon footprint of the grammar school madness.

skating I personally think those wealthy driven high achieving parents" won't become governors, one of the reasons people pay huge sums of money in school fees is because they don't won't to be that involved.
Talkin re only offering bursaries to the children of parents who haven't been privately educated. I personally don't see why you should penalise a child because of his parents. Bursaries are means tested if you qualify for one it means that your parents don't earn sufficient income and have insufficient assets to pay the fees, you may have been privately educated but this is not a guarantee of financial success in later life. The two criteria should be; will this child benefit from the education offered and is their parents income low enough and assets insufficient enough to be in receipt of financial assistance. Bursaries are open to anyone, all can apply for one regardless of background and in the case of boarding schools their location.

Locally, the GS may not get extra government funding - but it DOES have significant endowment funding (which the comprehensives don't have) and very significant donations from alumni (again not normally a feature of comprehensive / secondary modern schools).

It's an upward spiral - the GS select the most able children. Some of these go on to have very well-paid jobs, and some of these will feel grateful to their former school, so will donate some of their money to it. Thus the facilities and funding situation of the GS spiral up - regardless of government funding - while those of other schools remain in line with government funding.

Abolishing GS, however worthy an aim., will not release that money into the comprehensive system - it will simply not go into education at all.

Within densely populated areas, catchments are an issue. Outside them, choice is an issue (the next nearest school may simply be too far or toio impractical to get to). In another area, GS may exacerbate social divide. In yet another, private schools may be the main issue. And in yet othersm however brilliant the school, the nature of the socioeconomics of the area (think seaside towns / ex industrial areas) means that they are fighting an uphill battle against entrenched apathy towards education.

TalkinPeace: Why are you eliding grammar schools with selective schools? And working with a fairly iconoclastic definition of "selective", too? Your thread title suggests you want to talk about grammar schools, yet you're all over the place. If 45% of K and C parents send their kids private, by definition they are not sending them to grammar schools.

Kensington and Chelsea is is and is not representative of London. There are so many well-off people there. On the other hand, there is a great deal of deprivation, or there used to be, before the HB changes. It was a popular choice for hostels.

Honestly, the reason so much money was poured into London schools was because of the issues of deprivation impacting on children's education. A significant number of children in London do not speak English as a first language, speak English very little, or do not speak English at all. I know that this arises outside of London, but it arises a lot in some areas of London.

I really find it annoying that there is this idea that the majority of Londoners are very rich, toying idly with the decision to send their child to a private school or a grammar. A significant number of Londoners do not speak English in their home, and are light years away from being in any such privileged position. Many are in unstable housing and getting the children to school on the right day, at the right time, with adequate clothing and food is a struggle.

It is awful that media representations of London have silenced them and removed them from the picture of what London is and Londoners are, please don't repeat that injustice on mn.

Sorry, teacher, our SSGS has no endowment and no alumni donations. It just gets almost the lowest finding per head in the entire country.

Honestly. The idea that the "majority" of Londoners are sitting around, braying about the supposed death knell or clarion call of a particular type of school system is risible.

Is that honestly what people outside of London think?? Or is it just a mumsnet fantasy?

teacherwith2kids
I guess at least if state funding for segregated schools ceased
then the "other" schools might be able to recruit good teachers to go with their more mixed intake
there will always be differences between schools, but lets at least put the tutoring industry out of business

happygardening
my point about bursaries is that I have a hunch
unsubstantiated but I'll be delighted to be proved wrong
that many, many bursaries and scholarships at private schools go to the children and grandchildren of alumni who have arranged their finances to be eligible
(remember than many people are not on 'salaries')
or who know how to play the rules and systems with their own former tutors.
Charity status should be about outreach (as per the current guidelines)
I see little or no evidence of it.

but back to the point
the state should not be paying for ANY sort of segregated schools.
End of.

Talkinpeace said "please keep private schools out of this ... simple reason... they will never EVER be abolished"

They don't need to be abolished. They just need better competition from the state sector to reduce their influence. Some people will always use the private sector. Many others will only use the private sector if their local state school isn't up to scratch. That includes many politicians, who want to be seen to be mucking in with the rest of us if they can do it without sacrificing their DCs education.

There are too many LAs happy to let their state schools under-perform, claiming they don't need more places because their existing schools are not full, when actually what is happening is that anyone who can scrape together enough money is fleeing to the private sector, saving the LA money in the process. That's one factor in favour free schools ... when they're successful (and many will be, despite some high profile failures) they bring people back from the private sector in areas where local authorities are lagging behind parents in their aspirations for their children.

But they are funding hoards of non grammar segregated schools.

I passed my 11+ in 1971 and went to the local grammar school. Both my parents left school at 14 and nobody in my family had even stayed to the end of school before; they all had to leave and work. I got O levels, then A levels, went to university and then on to professional qualifications.

By the time my brother came to school it had become comprehensive but he did well and also went on to university.
Sadly the standards did fall once the school became comprehensive and by the time my youngest brother came through my parents chose for him to go to a different school

It may not be a popular view but, if grammar schools had existed, I would have sent my children to them. I don't believe the comprehensive system has improved opportunities or mobility

Skating
LAs are not allowed to open new schools.
They can add nw place sto existing schools, but they cannot open a new school to replace one that was sold off by Gordon Brown

I'd be interested to know which free schools have waiting lists
or are being opened where there is actual need

Talkin I'm sorry to shatter your illusion but all those I know or have known on bursaries to a variety of pretty smart boarding preps and senior schools are not old alumni or families who know how to minimise their substantial assets on paper. Although I do accept that most are MC professionals often public sector workers. I'm unsure as to whether the predominance of MC parents on bursaries is because they know they exist and how to get one, are not for the want of a better phrase "in awe" of a big name boarding school or the school deliberately choose nice MC parents who won't scare the horses.

if that is the case I'd be delighted to see the schools shout it from the rooftops because the CC and the NAO are on their case on the matter

"I'd be interested to know which free schools have waiting lists or are being opened where there is actual need"

Talkinpeace, there are lots. One example of a free school that is oversubscribed is Toby Young's West London Free School (Disclaimer: I'm not a fan, it's just a valid example). And there are no areas of London that don't need more school places. The population is ballooning, and the only schools that are undersubscribed are undersubscribed because they are underperforming.

Skatng I agree with you state ed needs to be universally better so that it can compete with independent ed. then I suspect many MC parents will not pay but send their DC's to state schools instead. You are also correct that there will always be those who will pay come what may regardless (we would do this for DS2) because they like what it is and believe the whole package can never be available in the state sector. At the end of the day leave these parents alone it's their money let them spend it how they like.

"LAs are not allowed to open new schools"

Yes, I know. That's because in far too many areas the LAs haven't been doing a good job of running the ones they have opened in the past. I agree with you that its a shame that all the areas that were doing well have to suffer the consequences of the policy too, but I can sort of see the logic behind it.

Talkin, tbh, I'm not certain that the 'mixed' schools would always benefit from the 'grammar' teachers ... those used only to teaching a narrow band of abilities, relying on able and compliant pupils with parents who are able to offer significant help with homework (and are accustomed to paying for tutoring should a child 'fall behind'), and in schools which have a very high tolerance of 'formally didactic' teaching styles, may not always be suited to teaching elsewhere....

Obviously Talkin I can only comment on a fairly small group of schools but I know friends/acquaintances with DS's on bursaries at schools including Win Coll SPS Eton Ampleforth Marlborough and a few well know preps none are old alumni interestingly at least three are state educated themselves but all are monumentally middle class.

I teach in a grammar. My departmental budget was higher in a high school 15 years ago than it is now for a very similar number of pupils. Parental contributions are similar to that requested by my sons special school.

skating
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25369094
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-25352037
other than West London, which Free Schools have been opened in London ( where we all agree the need is greatest ) ?
because lots of Free schools are part empty
www.theguardian.com/education/2013/dec/13/half-free-schools-spare-places-figures

it would be MUCH simpler if LEAs were required to provide places where they were needed - as they were before Broon and Bliar decided to sell off lots of former school sites for housing, rather than anticipating the demographic changes which are entirely cyclical

Demographic changes are far from entirely cyclical.

Stille - our GS asks for no parental contributions at all (lots of raffles etc but no set regular parental contribution)

Frankly Talkin I wouldn't waste my energies criticising the bursary policies of independent schools in the vast majority of cases they are attached to scholarships only a handful of schools offer large bursaries to non scholars.
If I was you I would channel my energies into criticising and if possible improving the unimaginative over regulated one size fits all education offered by the state be it grammar or comprehensive.

happygardening
on that we can agree.

I find it shocking how half arsed state schools are in other parts of the country (DH works in almost every county so he gets to compare)
but also inspired by how excellent some schools are even with "challenging" pupils.

Its a shame that the Idiot Gove wants to dismantle networks between schools (which good LEA attached inspectors gave)
and clusters of feeder and secondary schools should work together to share best practice
that antithesis of free schools, academies or selective schools

Talkin, you're daft if you think 2 bad free schools is the deathnell of all free schools. Many are doing well, and only time will tell what their legacy will be.

According to the NAO report, more than a third of the free schools that have opened so far have opened in London.

skating
but are they where there is a NEED?
or where parents and churches fancy opening them?