Grammar Schools : the debate is about what happens NOW

[TalkinPeace]

In the 20 years after WW2, when the baby boomers were kids, grammar schools did amazing things for social mobility.

But then, self preservation kicked back in
and since 1970, selective state schools have become progressively less inclusive
to the extent today where the (grammar school educated head of OFSTED) says
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25386784

the death knell has been rung
as it has for DB pensions (another great Baby Boomer nest lining idea)

so lets bite the bullet and put equal resources into all schools and reduce the carbon footprint of the grammar school madness.

Happygardening
I haven't see it happening in any of the state schools my DS's have attended
You have one son at a school that is only open to very rich and highly academic boys
and the other son at a high achieving comp.

How much experience do you have of

• girls schools
• middle schools
• non selective private schools
• secondary moderns
• inner city schools

Just that DH goes to all of them, regularly, and what people tell you (probably in the knowledge that you can afford to send a child to boarding school - may not be wholly representative of conversations in general.

I agree with nibs777.

Social mobility in the past was up from what we would now call lower middle (but was then working class) to middle.

In Jeanette Winterson's autobiography she laments the decline in thirst for knowledge in working class communities. She writes about her stepfather and his colleagues (all blue collar workers) attending lectures and other improving activities. Interestingly she also blames lack of church attendance for the possible decline in achievement of wc children: years ago people were brought up hearing (or even having shoved down their throats) wordy sermons/hymns/prayers. Consequently they would absorb a richer, wider range of language than an equivalent person would be likely to encounter today.

So the question really is this: are all these schools really effective in bringing the best out in young people?

Because my own opinion is that there is a wild and massive difference in the quality of the education provided within the state sector, even between two grammars or two similar comprehensives.

I don't think you can really say that they all provide a fantastic education to all, and I think the biggest challenge we face today is how do we make sure everyone gets a good shot at a good education...

I also agree with nibs777. I'll borrow that. ;)

Happy, I apologise if I have misunderstood, but from my reading of your posts, all the comments you have heard from other parents have been about one particular comprehensive, your local one - is that right?

years ago people were brought up hearing (or even having shoved down their throats) wordy sermons/hymns/prayers.

I think you've got something there. And in non-conformist churches at least, working men and women could become local preachers or other office holders in the Church, and be very effective too.

No the comments I hear are from parents from at variety of schools senior and primary across the five five counties local to me, we live on the boarder of three and I work on another, I hear comments from parents where I live, parents of the children I work with and colleagues at work. Are we all wrong? If any of you think we are then as I've already said you are either in denial or just exceedingly complacent.

So you don't know anyone who is happy with state education? Are you sure that their dissatisfaction doesn't come after you tell them about what's available at Winchester?

Well, I'm happy with the state education DD1 is getting. And I'm not completely unhappy with the education DS is getting either. DD2 will go to DD1's school and then I'll be happy with her education. So, yes, while know 'the system' qua system needs work and certainly the lowest funded counties (i.e. where I live) need more money, nevertheless I a happy with state education as my kids are experiencing it and I'm neither in denial nor complacent. I may be lucky.

Curlew- are you happy with the education your DD is accessing?

met is the school you're happy with a super selective?

To be fair though happy parents moan about schools, in the same way that writers moan about their agents .

Of course I know people who are happy with state ed. but I also know many who aren't. Parents who feel that their children are under performing because their educational needs are not being met. As I've already said these parents feel that their children are not fitting the required box; average or above average intelligence compliant self motivated, no special needs like dyslexia, no significant health needs, no genuine geniuses, no reluctant scholars, no behavioural issues, no mental health problems etc. no serious issue sat home in particular child carers (a group I have been involved in in the past whose appalling treatment by schools has to been seen to appreciated) This represents a significant % of UK school children.

Yes parents moan but we as professionals are also shocked at times as to how one size fits all many schools are.

Isn't that the nature of the beast, though?

An institution, any institution, cannot ever hoep to serve each and every individual.

i'm VERY happy with state education - its meant that my daughter and I can have a a decent standard of living outside of the school gate instead of paying school fee's.

I have probably had more feedback from my daughter's school than most of the parents whose children are at a grammar school :

!5 minute session with tutor mid term - goals set with parents/dd agreement...follow up call a week later about issues I raised.

First report detailing this terms assessments is due home tomorrow...

We then have a mentor session again in February to discuss individual subjects ....

My daughter is in Yr 7 ....working at level 6/7 already ... yes there is some disruption occasionally in classes but its dealt with ...

This is a very AVERAGE comp 65% A-C grades at GCSE but I can only see it getting better and better because they do offer probably 35% of vocational courses including time at the local Agricultural college ...

I think like someone has already stated ...the results cannot improve in some area's if the cream off children are being selected to go to certain schools - education has to be a balance and it took a while for me to believe but I think any child with ability will do well at most schools if the schools can also get a good cross selection of teachers ...

"Any institution cannot hope to to serve each and every individual"
That's ok is it word? I don't think it is. Every child or adult Ive worked with who hasn't has their needs served for a variety of reasons stays with me. I am not a teacher so can't comment on them but most I've worked with, work morning noon and night to try meet the individual needs of those we serve and we are an enormous institution. This is ingrained in our culture.

Not sure where this thread is going, considering it was called "Grammar School: the debate is what is happening NOW"

"Yes parents moan but we as professionals are also shocked at times as to how one size fits all many schools are."

Happygardening- I expect you think you've explained this, but I honestly don't understand what "one size fits all " means in relation to education. Could you explain a bit more? And are you able to tell us what your profession is? It might help us to understand how you feel you have met a sizeable % of state school parents.

Metabilis- yes, I am happy with the education both my children are receiving. As individuals. As a taxpayer, as a citizen and as a member of a community I am not at all happy with it. What serves individuals well does not always contribute to the greater good. And my secondary modern son is only receiving the broad education I think all children should get, and which would be possible to provide in a comprehensive school, because I am aware, educated and have the time and resources to provide what the school does not. Many of his peers' parents lack one or all of these things.

happy I don't think it's ok...but I don't see how one institution can offer everything to everyone. Not realistically.

Under the Blair administration an unprecedented amount of money, energy and will was spent on education and still many DC were left unable to access a decent education.

I was speaking to a family member this weekend who hasd an exceedingly bright child who attends a very good comp. However, that comp can't possibly cater for the child's needs as there just aren't enough children of her ability.

I know somebody whose child was very unhappy at Wnchester- he just wasn't a Winchester shaped boy. That doesn't mean that Winchester is a bad school, or that private schools provide a "one size fits all" education. Although to be honest, many of the oldest and most venerable do......

My pipe dream is to see three grammar schools in each town and city: boys, girls and mixed.

Hold on, did that not happen until Crosland, Willams, Thatcher et al took the cudgels to them.

wordfactory - I agree that institutions, by their very design, do not cater particularly well to the individual. I just wish that they would be more upfront about their limitations!

curlew exactly.

I'd bet my bottom dollar there are kids not thriving at my DC schools too. There'll just be fewer of 'em because they hand pick their pupils for the best fit for what they have to offer.

Grammar schools (in particluar super selective ones) will have fewer DC not thriving too, as their pupils are hand picked to suit.

Comps will have the most not thriving because they take all comers.

My pipe dream is to see three grammar schools in each town and city: boys, girls and mixed. Hold on, did that not happen until Crosland, Willams, Thatcher et al took the cudgels to them.

Not in either of the towns I grew up in. In one a mixed grammar school in the next town ten miles or so away, and in another two single sexed grammar schools but both at the other end of town. Both of these towns were in rural areas, with long travelling distances pretty much the norm.

Ditto with the Sec Mods - a mish mash of single sex, mixed, religious, but there were more of them, so without the long travelling distances.

All of these schools were a pretty mixed bag - the girl's Sec Mod in particular had a good reputation - the rest, hmm well.

But for those who do think Grammar schools are wonderful (mine wasn't, nor was my brother's) what would you do for the rest of the children?

Deliverance- and the rest of the children go where?