They don't teach long division anymore...!

[ElaClaw]

My dd is in the first year of secondary and during some revision work came across a sum where long division would be useful. She swore that she has never done long division and I was adamant that she would have done it in Primary school.

Fast forward to parents' evening. I asked the (young) maths teacher and he says that long division is no longer part of the curriculum (he even said he didn't even know how to do it until a couple of years ago when he taught himself for personal interest.

Apparently they just use a calculator.

they do!

dc should leave primary with understanding of mental and written methods of long division

not sure what that teacher was thinking

I have taught long division to junior classes

We teach chunking. Loads of threads on it. It isn't that new- been done for a out 15 years. It is more effective and connections to understanding of numbers and place value rather than long division which is a magic trick that they have no concept of why it works and often get wrong as they wrongly remember the algorithm.

Yes it is taught and yes it is on the curriculum. The method taught may be an informal one such as "chunking" but it is a method nonetheless. However in my 20+ years teaching experience kids often forget how to do less used methods and need to be reminded every now and again.

ds1 is in year 4 and he was learning about long division recently.

However I think it has some silly name like the bus stop method (there are lots of silly names for all sorts of normal things so I could have muddled it up with something else!)

They just did very simple long division but they tend to do something like this by just doing the basics, then they'll come back to it in a few weeks and do a little bit more so that they are constantly doing something and then they get to revise it again when they come back to it so they keep everything they learn on the go rather than do all their division for the year now and not touch it again for another year!

I also have a feeling that they are getting rid of calculators at primary level (ds hasn't got on to using them yet...)

Been chunking only this evening myself!

ds has learned both chunking and the bus stop method.

I think this article seems quite balanced. Though tbh ds does more times table practice now than I did in the 70s.

I'd recommend the books by Derek Haylock for anyone wanting to understand how primary maths is taught these days. They're aimed at teachers, but that's actually what I found useful about them .... they explain how children learn. In particular they explain how modern methods teach understanding of maths rather than just memorisation of methods (like long division).

My DS learnt chunking and can now do long division in his head. He's much more advanced with his maths than I ever was at his age and I've loved watching him learn.

Aaah ISWYM - when I was saying long division, I was meaning "a method of dividing a large number by another large number" he was hearing "old-fashioned long-division"

In that case, long-division wasn't even being taught when I was at school. I think you would call it chunking. Mind you, when I asked how it is done, he did say "a calculator"

"Though tbh ds does more times table practice now than I did in the 70s."

It's still important to memorise times-tables (as well as understand them) because they're basic building blocks for everything else. Its useful to be able to recall the answers quickly, rather than working them out each time.

Just remembered a lovely word coined by Derek Haylock in one of his books that I read ... adhocorithm ... celebrating the use of the adhoc methods we all use naturally, as adults, to work things out in our heads. Modern methods give children the tools to do exactly that, rather than teaching them fixed algorithms that they soon forget.

It really winds me up when people talk about not bothering with things any more... I think chunking and gridding are great at helping kids really understand what it is they are doing and giving them skills that can help with their mental arithmetic, and I think you should always understand something rather than simply memorise it regardless of understanding, because if nothing else, it helps ensure you don't forget how to do it. BUT it's a bloody stupid waste of someone's time to "show their working" using gridding or chunking if they can use quicker methods and actually understand and remember those, too - my ds1 wasted loads of time drawing out little grids, last year... I therefore think that once you have proved that you understand what you are doing, someone really should show you quicker ways of writing things out, once the numbers have got too big for pure mental arithmetic or long-winded modern methods. To just reach for a calculator is a cop-out and to draw grids or to do mass chunking is a waste of precious time and paper. It's not as if able mathematicians don't benefit from being taught the neatest, quickest way of setting things out. And they are going to have to remember some way of setting out their working, so why not remember the neatest, quickest way, rather than the way that involves writing out lots of alternative sums and giving the answers to those, instead, before putting the whole lot back together again at the end, if your work was neat enough to be able to do that, accurately?...

In other words, bah, humbug.

They do teach long division still!! All my dc have done it at primary level, however both ds1 and ds2 got terribly frustrated as they immediately 'got' it but were made to do endless chunking which took forever - their school had a rather rigid view of how children should be doing things

Dd is at a different school and the top maths set started off with chunking in year 3 or 4 but quickly went past that and now uses a method very similar to the one I used 30+ years ago

Forgot to mention we are in Scotland, if that makes a difference.

I think endless chunking and gridding, regardless of a child's ability, is poor teaching and a failure to use modern teaching methods properly - they are a step along the way, not the best way of doing things. A scandalously large proportion of children at my dss' school are still doing chunking and gridding in year 6, and the result is pretty lousy maths SATs results, not a year group of children with amazing understanding of maths concepts. In fact, at their worst, modern methods are just a huge increase in the number of ways children have to memorise how to do a simple calculation, which can be extremely confusing if badly taught, not helpful and enlightening.

In fact, at their worst, modern methods are just a huge increase in the number of ways children have to memorise how to do a simple calculation, which can be extremely confusing if badly taught, not helpful and enlightening.

I completely agree.

Yes, agree it needs to be properly taught. Again going back to the Derek Haylock book, which is aimed at teaching teachers how to teach primary maths, he gives some fairly shocking background about, not just the lack of specialist primary maths teachers, but a lack of confidence with maths generally in primary teachers.

Is it still the case that only a C at GCSE Maths is needed for a PGCE?

They do teach long division still

Some schools do, some don't. My local primary school only teaches chunking although they don't mind if children use other methods provided they get the right answer.

DS1 is year four and was doing it this weekend. Old fashioned (well at least 1980s) method too

My DS is 18 and cant do long division. He has been taught it and I have also gone over it with him several time, but he still doesnt get it. He got an A for his AS level maths last year and a gold in the senior maths challenge a few weeks ago, so it really doesnt seem to matter that much. Whatever he is doing seems to work.

bruffin - I don't think AS level maths particularly tests arithmetic. That doesn't mean it isn't a useful skill. I use my knowledge of times tables and methods for doing mental arithmetic daily. I also occasionally still use long division and multiplication, when I don't have a calculator handy. I still find this quicker than getting out your mobile phone, or a calculator, or other electronic device and then mis-typing a number without even noticing so that the wrong answer comes out at the end, anyway...

A primary school really shouldn't only teach chunking. They need to know an efficient written method by the time they leave year six.

So we have lots of surveys saying that maths skills in this country are going downhill, and lots of people saying that the new methods of teaching maths improve basic understanding rather than the "old fashioned" learning by rote. I'm 43 and when we did maths, there was no learning by rote, we just learned methods to solve problems.

bruffin has said her son can't do long division because he doesn't "get" it, yet He got an A for his AS level maths last year and a gold in the senior maths challenge a few weeks ago, so it really doesnt seem to matter that much. That pretty much sums it up really, doesn't it.

I find it rather depressing. I plan on teaching/supporting my DD using the "modern" methods, and when she has a thorough grounding in those, then I will show her my old-fashioned methods.

It's quite interesting that when I was at school, the "top set" were not allowed to use calculators until we had shown that we could do the problems without one.

DD2's primary most definitely teaches long division and long multiplication. They start with gridding and chunking and then teach the 'traditional' methods, and the aim is to get to a point where a child can choose the most appropriate method for a particular sum.

DD2 likes gridding but hates chunking...

DD1 is now in Yr8 and only uses the 'traditional' method, but that is because it is (mostly) more efficient and she's secure in using it.

DS (8yo) was doing some maths with me this morning and we were using long division. He didn't act like he'd never seen it before and i'm pretty sure i've seen it in his school books before now.