For anyone who still thinks that access to selective state education is a level playing field.....

[curlew]

I have just read the latest OfSTED for my dd's grammar school.

There are no children in Year 7 who are eligible for FSM. None. Not one.

'.which makes you as competitive as the other parents'

Whatever. They are not wrong.

I think we are all at the mercy of a crappy system.

It's like the LEA's version of 'let's you and him fight'

grammars are so so marginal for all but MN posters - its really quite funny

sorry, I don't understand Talk

and if there was the third option to all of sainsbury's, my child would be going to sainsbury's. Or even Tesco.

are we defining anyone who's not on free school meals as "wealthy"

No but they are wealthier than average (a) if they can afford tutoring (b) if they can afford private prep schools as a comprised by a third of some of the Kent suoerselectives. Private pupils opt into state only if there is a a socio-economic advantage (future careers being taken into consideration) - the same is true of state school pupils opting into private. This motivates more middle class families.

Grammar areas are not fair in terns of equality of opportunity and distribution of resources or even value for money as the overall academic standard of all LA is average or even lower (see Chris Cook's chart).

LAs with grammar schools that top the Ebacc or GCSE averages always import top attainers beyond their borders which enhances their position. And they are often from middle class areas whose parents are prepared for the school run. Sutton takes from Merton, Trafford takes from Cheshire, etc.

It's completely understandable for parents born and brought up in a grammar area to try for grammars for their children because they are stuck in this segregated system and would have to uproot. They know resources are unfairly distributed. That's not the same as defending the system or wishing to see it expanded where it doesn't exist.

roonersthere are only three counties with grammars, and one of them (hertfordshire) has such big boundaries that its a farce
most of the rest of the country snigger into our cuffs at the shite you in Kent accept from your LEA

Talkinpeace " roonersthere are only three counties with grammars,"

Are there only three counties with GS?

Yes I can imagine Talk

It is such a shame. but as you say we have roots here. Moving would be unthinkable (though I do think about it for various reasons!)

So we have to go for it really, until they decide to change the system. It isn't fair on anyone (unless you're in the lucky 25%)

"top-set pupils, who have to run the gauntlet of hassle and jeers whenever they step outside their top-set classrooms"

That certainly isn't the case at the comp my DD will be going to which, coincidentally, is the one LaQ's DDs would also be attending had they not passed the 11+

Good catchment area with plenty of parents as well-educated as LaQ and her DH are and with bright, highly-motivated pupils. Education, attainment, ambition is encouraged and nurtured there.

fiddlyfoodle
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_England

rooners
they never will - come to Hampshire : better overall results, mucho less stress

"If you find grammar school objectionable why did you pursue it as dd school"

In a full grammar area such as Kent you don't 'pursue' it, it is just the system. And by sending your child to the high school in the same system you are still in the system.

More principled to be in Curlew's position who have a grammar ability child but would like to see (and would vote for) a proper comprehensive system to benefit children of all abilities better than parents who use every trick in the book to get their child in a selective school and then do all they can to protest against children ever needing to share the same school gates with children with a lower SATS score.

Curlew has drawn attention to a significant inequality, why any carping about that?

"top-set pupils, who have to run the gauntlet of hassle and jeers whenever they step outside their top-set classrooms"

This is not the experience in the comp my geekiest, brainiest top-of-top set dc attends, not at all. Nor at any of the schools attended by my friend's similar ability kids. In fact I know of not one contemporary school where this happens. And I visit many.

And if picking on the top set is such a daily danger, what happens to the top set in the high school? Maybe they could be put in a sub-grammar and then the resulting new top set in the high school would need to be taken to a safe place ....and so on.

Or is it the case that even though they are the top set in the high school they are of lower ability and therefore have the necessary thug genes of the middle and lower sets in order to protect themselves?

Unlike the poor sops in grammars who mince about singing 'hello clouds, hello sky'?

""top-set pupils, who have to run the gauntlet of hassle and jeers whenever they step outside their top-set classrooms"

Because all non-top set children are bullies?

So we're coming down on the side of this 'beaten up by others as soon as they leave their classroom' idea being a 'straw man' from supporters / attenders of grammar schools, at least thus far?

"top-set pupils, who have to run the gauntlet of hassle and jeers whenever they step outside their top-set classrooms"

You hear this so often that I thought I must be living in a parallel universe. DS went to the least leafy comp and it certainly wasn't the case there. One of the ablest boys (sadly not DS) who got top grades for everything, far from being bullied, seemed to be treated as a minor celebrity. Two of the wussiest boys in DS's class (mixed ability for first 2 years) were of very average ability.

While many families in the catchment didn't value eduction, it was characterised more by poor attendance, rather than anything else. By not being there, they had limited effect on the children for whom attending school regularly was non-negotiable.

Never found top set DCs get much if any hassle for being in the top sets. For being unfashionable and geeky perhaps, but that applies to set two/three DD1 just as much as top set geeks.

Children of all abilities can be perceived as different and be given a hard time.

Top set DCs can be very nasty too

talkinpeace - there's more than three counties with grammar schools or did I imagine essex, wilts, dorset, lincs?

talkinpeace, thanks for the wiki link but can you explain why you say "there are only three counties with grammars,"

I went to a school that at the time, had the highest number of pupils in the country claiming FSM. It was a good school with very dedicated teachers. And no, kids who did well academically were not bullied for that.

Top set , subject-prize-winning, musical-instrument-playing, non-sporty, quite sensitive, physically small DS has never had any negative reactions. He has friends across a range of classes and sets, and yet I am given to understand (on MN at least) that in schools like his S London local comp he is at risk. Mainly of being 'eaten alive'.

Cumbria, North Yorkshire, Calderdale, Lancashire, Wirral, Trafford, Lincolnshire , Warwickshire , Staffordshire, Merseyside, Wirral, West Midlands,Gloucestershire, Essex, Surrey, Kent, Dorset, Devon Northern Ireland.
21 Counties that have at least 1 Grammar School located within their boundaries Liverpool = Bluecoat School, Staffordshire= St Josephs College
Both are designated Grammar Schools.....

Sorry. Cant Count 18 Counties and 1 Country......

Wiltshire= 19...