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For anyone who still thinks that access to selective state education is a level playing field.....

903 replies

curlew · 29/11/2013 12:18

I have just read the latest OfSTED for my dd's grammar school.

There are no children in Year 7 who are eligible for FSM. None. Not one.

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curlew · 01/12/2013 10:15

Really,summerends? So not a driver of social mobility- a way for the bright but disadvantaged child to step out of disadvantage? Just another way to give the privileged more privilege.

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summerends · 01/12/2013 10:21

What about the questions in my previous post curlew?

kitchen, I think with good teaching, faster moving teaching can be engaging and certainly does n't have to stifling and exam orientated. So again, school dependent.

straggle · 01/12/2013 10:28

State schools can't interview and grammars can only test within narrow parameters. The concept of 'all rounders' at grammar schools is laughable. In wealthy areas where both superselectives and prestigious private schools exist (and they can interview), parents are often prepared to pay for that all-rounder experience over the exam factory even when their DCs qualify.

Sadly the common response for those in Kent and other selective areas whose children do not pass the 11plus is to go private if they can afford it which also skews the intake of the moderns disproportionately to the national and LA average. So the higher ability from wealthier families are transferring into the state sector grammars and the wealthy average are transferring out of the moderns.

summerends · 01/12/2013 10:37

Straggle, I said academic allrounders (ie good in English and maths) not the wider concept of all rounders.

Not all grammars are exam factories but money definitely comes into the equation (whether in or out of school) for providing diverse high quality extracurricular experiences.

curlew · 01/12/2013 10:40

Sorry, summerends- I missed your post.

I don't think that my children's education is particularly relevant here. I am quite confident that I could provide my children with a more than adequate education regardless of the actual school they attend. I have the time, the resources, the education, the knowledge and the inclination to fill in any gaps that the school provision. For many children this is not the case. The education provided by school is all they are going to get. And a secondary modern education is by definition narrowed than a comprehensive one. Incidentally, they same could be said of a grammar school education....!

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FastLoris · 01/12/2013 11:06

@ Talkinpeace -

Pretty much every single comp is incredibly hot on setting

Not according to this:

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9141225/More-children-being-taught-in-mixed-ability-classrooms.html

45% of lessons and going down, not up.

so it is nothing at all like the segregation of grammar schools where kids who miss the cut never ever get that opportunity again.

That's simply wrong. Plenty of kids who don't get into grammar school end up at grammar 6th forms and/or university.

summerends · 01/12/2013 11:12

curlew, just wanting your insights into why secondary moderns are so emotive and what can be tackled to make schools not overly large and potentially souless but tailored to provide the best child appropriate teaching at different stages.
Mediocre schools whatever the type are not the answer. People are kidding themselves if they are thinking that well led comprehensives (with possibly the added bonus of good parental support) are excellent schools just because they are comprehensive.

Rooners · 01/12/2013 11:25

You could almost predict the grammar vs high school contingents here by their socio economic background.

The only confusticator in terms of factors is SpLD.

upper demographic + SpLD = fail
upper " without SpLD = consistent pass

lower demographic + or - SpLD = fail

that's how you get the 25%. roughly

talkingnonsense · 01/12/2013 11:33

Do you not think that partly, parents who have academically able children are statistically likely to be academically able themselves; if they are also motivated enough to do a bit of grammar school tuitions and entering, are also more likely to be employed? After all, bright and motivated is a pretty good way to find a job? So it isn't that FSM children are excluded, but that the parents of children at grammar school are less likely to be on FSM (obv redundancy, bereavement, disability affects everyone, and is probably the small % that do claim).

dawntigga · 01/12/2013 11:41

I agree that deprivation does not determine destiny there is a fucking HUGE difference between children from low income families succeeding within education and life and their higher income family peers.

The government are allegedly trying to plug the gap and there is something called 2022 Impact Goals which are:

1: Narrow the gap in literacy and numeracy in primary schools
2: Narrow the gap in GCSE attainment at secondary schools
3: Ensure young people develop key strengths, including resilience and wellbeing, to support high aspirations
4: Narrow the gap in the proportion of young people in education, employment or training one year after compulsory education
5: Narrow the gap in university graduation, including from the 25% most selective universities

I haven't investigated this yet so have absolutely no idea how they intend to try to do this except for the Teach First program, there must be other programs out there.

It HAS to start in primaries though, there has to be some sort of reach out to the parents of children caught in the poverty trap to raise them up so they can encourage their children. I have no idea how this would be done without being a condescending do-gooder Sad. The more I learn about education and children in this country the sadder and more despondent I become.

If any of you have links etc to schemes/schools that are achieving lifting the aspirations of children I'd be bloody grateful for them.

QuiteSadTiggaxx

straggle · 01/12/2013 11:44

Mossbourne Communjty Academy had 23% high attainers in its 2012 GCSE intake. 68% of them passed five Ebacc subjects. 52% of its intake are classed as disadvantaged so that will include many in the 'top sets'. 14 of the Kent grammars failed to achieve that level overall.

One reason may be that those Kent grammars - with tiny intakes of 120 or so- just aren't very good or are very complacent, or through its limited testing process end up with children who are good at science but not all-rounders when it comes to History or MFL. But Mossbourne is opening up opportunities with its slightly larger intake (but still only 180 in that year) to more pupils, more of whom are disadvantaged.

It is selective in a way - it operates strict banding as a criteria for entry. But it guarantees places and provides opportunities for all ability levels in a way Kent moderns or academies could never do.

straggle · 01/12/2013 11:49

Oh, and 28% of Mossbournes's 'middle' prior attainers gained Ebacc which was four times the national average. And beat 5 of the Kent grammars for their over-tutored and probably privately educated and privileged middle attainers.

FastLoris · 01/12/2013 11:54

Talkingnonsense - yes, that's probably a factor. I certainly think there's a lot of lazy presumption in the way people automatically associate "academic involvement" of parents with "privilege".

In fact I dispute the idea that the existence of tutoring automatically creates clear immovable categories of haves and have nots. Around here, tutors generally cost about £30 an hour. We had one for our DC, once a week for two terms before the 11+ (although they weren't much good and I ended up doing most of the work myself). At say 12 weeks per term, that's 24 x 30 = £720, total.

Is that an amount that will be unaffordable for many people with children on FSM? Yes, probably (the FSM threshold is extremely low and not generally accepted as a very accurate indicator of class or disadvantage, since you can be really quite poor and still not under it). Is it, WITHIN THE GREATER SCHEME OF WHAT IT COSTS TO RAISE A CHILD ANYWAY, an amount that automatically excludes all working class children and confines 11+ success to the "privileged" few? Nah, that's bollox.

In fact there are plenty of people with less of an educational, professional culture than my family has, who earn more money than us. (Seen what plumbers charge these days?) Many of these people don't tutor their kids for 11+, but it's not because we can afford it and they can't. It's just because it's not part of the way they think or what it would occur to them to spend their money on.

Now of course I'm aware that there are areas where tutors cost more than that, and superselectives where candidates are tutored for longer than that. OTOH there are also plenty of people in our area whose kids pass 11+ with no tutoring at all - the claims that that's impossible in fully selective areas are simply untrue. Partly of course this is because so much of the difference in a child's academic orientation is already created by that age in so many other, broader ways - whether their parents read to them when they were little, whether their parents TALKED to them when they were little, etc. etc. So it may be that tutoring, while high profile and obvious and an effective way for parents to spend their money reassuring themselves that they're doing all they can, isn't actually such a major factor in determining success.

Aren't there some grammar schools (eg Tiffins, I think?) that go out of their way to make their entrance exam as unpreparable as possible? That probably makes little difference though as the kids are still affected by the amount of input and support that has gone into their education (in the widest sense) generally up to that point.

straggle · 01/12/2013 12:01

These secondary schools are among the Mayor of London's 'gold club' of schools getting above average results for pupil premium children and overall for Ebacc and where the proportion of children gaining 5 GCSEs including English and Maths was at least equal to 100% of the middle and high attainers. Did he mention these in his 'inequality is good' speech? Oh, perhaps he forgot. Too many poor kids, not enough of them managed by academy chains set up by bankers.

Bancrofts School, Redbridge
Beal High School, Redbridge
Brampton Manor Academy, Newham
Cranford Community College, Hounslow
Featherstone High School, Ealing
Fulham Cross Girls' School and Language College, Hammersmith and Fulham
Greenford High School, Ealing
Harris Academy South Norwood, Croydon
Highbury Fields School, Islington
Holland Park School, Kensington and Chelsea
Little Ilford School, Newham
Loxford School of Science and Technology, Redbridge
Mayfield School, Dagenham, Redbridge
Plashet School, Newham
Platanos College, Lambeth
Sydenham School, Lewisham
Wembley High Technology College, Brent
Westminster Academy, Westminster
Woolwich Polytechnic School for Boys, Greenwich.

duchesse · 01/12/2013 12:09

FSM is a useful measure of household income but of course there are many families not eligible for FSM where levels of income don't permit tutoring etc...

My DNephew was in this boat. My DSis is a single mother of 2 with a full-time not very well paid job and no child maintenance from her awful ex. His primary school (Kent) did a few practise papers but he was up against kids intensively tutored from year 3. He scored 2% below the cut-off for grammar but has had the last laugh as nearest comp suddenly opened a grammar stream sponsored and mentored by one of the most high-achieving independent schools in the country. Win-win for Dnephew. He gets the grammar school experience with a very short commute!

straggle · 01/12/2013 12:11

And that list does not include Mossbourne or at least nine other London comprehensives whose top sets beat those 14 rather mediocre Kent grammars on Ebacc.

straggle · 01/12/2013 12:14

duchesse sounds like a true comprehensive but had to operate limited selection to overcome inbuilt disadvantage. Like Mossbourne.

straggle · 01/12/2013 12:27

Those 'gold club' schools beat more than 50% of the grammar schools in the country which did not gain 100% 5 A-C GCSEs including English and Maths, a criteria that ruled out most otherwise high achieving comprehensives. That is assuming no wealthy L3 attainers managed to scoop the 11plus with tutoring but not SATs.

duchesse · 01/12/2013 12:31

straggle the problem is more geographical in that their town has no GS of its own but tons of children commuting 10+ miles every day. (anybody in Kent will know where I mean now, possibly even which school Dnephew is at, but please don't say it on here).

Talkinpeace · 01/12/2013 12:46

fastloris
what are the stats for kids from secondary modern schools going to University?

curlew · 01/12/2013 12:51

"Mossbourne Communjty Academy had 23% high attainers in its 2012 GCSE intake. 68% of them passed five Ebacc subjects. 52% of its intake are classed as disadvantaged so that will include many in the 'top sets'. 14 of the Kent grammars failed to achieve that level overall."

The Ebacc is not a good test to use- one school I know, for example, has a comparatively low Ebacc pass rate- but that is because it has an excellent RE/Philosophy department, so lots of kids choose that as their Humanity. Thereby failing their EBacc, despite 10 A*/As.

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straggle · 01/12/2013 13:16

It's the measure used by Boris Johnson for his gold club and by the DfE in the performance tables. And summer was talking about all round excellence so it has to be measured in some way. RE is compulsory in schools anyway so most pupils do at least the short course. From 2015 they are measuring 'best 8'. RE has shot up in popularity but it doesn't exactly prepare you for a career at the cutting edge of science and technology - history of art maybe.

If grammar schools can't manage two or three sciences, two English, one maths, one MFL and history/geography then what are they for?

Talkinpeace · 01/12/2013 13:17

RE is not compulsory.
I have opted DD out of it for years 10 and 11 and will do the same for DS

duchesse · 01/12/2013 13:18

Can't really see why in a GS with a relatively limited number of options (I assume they're not doing Btecs for example) the timetabling is not simple enough to allow pupils to do both RE and a humanity. They seem to manage it at my children's independent schools. They only do 9-10 GCSEs there (vs local state schools' 12+) so things should be a lot clearer. Unless those GS are also doing 13+ GCSEs?

duchesse · 01/12/2013 13:20

I believe that some form of religious instruction is compulsory but could be wrong about that. At my DCs' schools they did 1.5 hours/week of what could be deemed to be RE although it was more like philosophy/critical thinking, but no qualification in it. It's a whole child thing, isn't it? Rather than just another tick on the CV.