For anyone who still thinks that access to selective state education is a level playing field.....

[curlew]

I have just read the latest OfSTED for my dd's grammar school.

There are no children in Year 7 who are eligible for FSM. None. Not one.

well good for you Monet but many others who go private at primary may switch to grammar at secondary because they are saving for uni, for pension pot or for other children or god knows what...suggesting means testing for entry into grammar schools and forcing rich people to go private is hardly going to help equality or social diversity or a level playing field ...your argument lacks logic...you are buying advantages already with money ...and your child will jump the queue in terms of healthcare and education because of money so to pretend to have some laudable aim of being socialist about it all smacks of hypocrisy.

The surest way for public services to go downhill is to exclude the more affluent from them.

Of course any person entitled to state education should have access! Means tested education and health are not the basis of our society at all.

What is iniquitous is the way that parents are able to use money in ways which have been mentioned over and over again on this thread to gain an actual advantage.

Don't be so sure, though, about the high earners subsidising but not enjoying the benefits of state provision. There was a documentary a while ago which demonstrated that mc high earners were benefitting hugely from state services and often more than other families because they knew how to get the best of things, using more cultural facilities, being able to afford travel to highly subsidised musems more often, using accountants to manage IHT, etc etc. I can't remember the details but it was astounding how a typical mc class family got more benefit form the state than the more usual stereotypes of the 'state subsidised' family.

The thing is, there's no evidence that in fully comprehensive LEAs (ie the majority), children on FSMs are being wonderfully educated.

It might make the middle classes in the top sets feel terribly pleased with themselves that their DC mix with those kids (hurrah) but it doesn't actually help those kids.

caro

"What is iniquitous is the way that parents are able to use money in ways which have been mentioned over and over again on this thread to gain an actual advantage."

So in other words anyone using private healthcare, private education, private tuition etc. is iniquitous, in your view, right? Where does it end...what about buying lots and lots of books ...is that iniquitous also? I mean lots of people can't afford to buy 200+ books or multiple online courses for their children. What about taking your children on cultural holidays eg learning the history of the Ottoman Empire from a trip, or going to the Galapagos to learn about evolution or Rome to learn about the Roman Empire ...that may give them en edge in school...or sending them to a language camp that puts them way ahead in French...

John O' Farrell "May Contain Nuts" speaks volumes ;-)

Exactly Word and the results are on the BBC re the Pisa tests(not pretty for us) but interestingly we're better than Sweden.Lets hope the holding up of Sweden as the experts in all child related matters ebbs off a tad now.

all I am saying is there are many ways to give your children an edge .. having parents being highly educated themselves is probably the biggest edge, being home educated 1:1 may be a big edge, having a SAHM who helps with their homework may be an edge over having parents both too busy working,,,it's not all black and white and about amount of wealth, private vs state , grammar vs comp, mc vs FSM...

I think coming from certain cultures where education is highly valued no matter how rich or poor you are is also a big edge ...and many grammar schools are packed with those ( I won't name the cultures to avoid being told I am stereo typing) .

And better than N Ireland, where don't they have the 11+?

Having read through most of this post ...I would like to SHOUT OUT that not all comprehensive schools should be tarred with the same brush....

My dd came home yesterday and said that the school had nominated 20-30 children from year 10 and above to be Anti Bully mentor's - which I was really impressed with - my daughter has not seen any bullying as yet in the school....so this would seem to be a preventative move (albeit i have no idea what goes on in the other years but do sit out side school everyday and watch well behaved children leave).

She's at a VERY average school with 1250 pupils and I cant rate it high enough in terms of her being stretched in classes - being assessed on a regular basis with feedback to myself each term (15 minute tutor session each term)...vertical tutoring really works in this school because it means that that there is little peer pressure because the children in the same year are spending very little time together given that the timetable is also diverse.

There are maths clinics after school - which you can go to if you are struggling with any aspect of the curriculum....plus other clubs like Cine Club where they make and edit films ...they have a car racing team...where they build and race their own cars...

The school is not in an affluent area ...it has a good ethnic mix which include Turkish and Polish children.... whose first language is not English.... It has a strong HT who has the version to clearly speak out and state that all children should have the opportunity to learn in the right environment and action will be taken to ensure that this goal is met.

On other points the school is laid back... children are allowed to keep their mobile phones with them providing they use them properly ...girls are allowed to wear make up as long as it is discreet ...

My daughter is extremely happy there ...she seems to have a really lovely mixture of friends ...some who are from families struggling to make ends meet...some from families who appear to be well off...we had a conversation yesterday about her friends one having to share an advent calendar with her 2 brothers and a sister and another friend who had 3 advent calendar's...

Education should be an equal playing field for everyone ...I truly believe that even Independent Schools should be opened up to everyone with just top up fee being paid by the parents (difference between the child state cost of education and Independent fee) then there are more options available which may take pressure of the grammar school system...

What is iniquitous is the way that parents are able to use money in ways which have been mentioned over and over again on this thread to gain an actual advantage.

No, what is iniquitous is the way in which the state primaries, in areas which retain selection, have completely opted out of the 11+ process, so that children have to depend on their parents being clued-up enough and well off enough to opt in to the whole application procedure, paying for tutoring etc. (to fill the gaps left by the state primaries. If you think your child being 'bright' will be enough to get them through, think again).

Exactly the children for whom the 11+ was invented - those who are bright, but unable to afford a private academic education (or tutoring), and who would have passed the 11+ when it was a universal state-run event - are now effectively precluded from having even a reasonable chance, if they get to sit it at all, that is.

Our local Grammar has been practically begging parents to check if their children might be eligible for FSM, because its parlous financial state is due, in part, to missing out on the attatched Pupil Premium. The begging has no doubt been entirely in vain. No surprise there.

Word - "It might make the middle classes in the top sets feel terribly pleased with themselves that their DC mix with those kids (hurrah) but it doesn't actually help those kids"

Am busily unpacking some troubling assumptions here, about 'those kids', FSM and its binary distinction from being a) middle class or b) in the top sets.

No, Indie.
That is not what I meant.
Maybe I should have repeated material from way way down the thread.
I am talking about the way parents are able to use tutoring to gain advantage in exams for a provision that is romatically believed to support social mobility but includes a miniscule proportion of FSM families.
I do not blame families for doing this, I blame a system that is established and open to such a gradient on the playing field. It is an iniquitous system in my belief. Buying book for your child is not.

Top sets in a comp are more accessible to all. IMO and IME. And therefore offer a more level playing field for all.

This thread feels like groundhog day now.

"The thing is, there's no evidence that in fully comprehensive LEAs (ie the majority), children on FSMs are being wonderfully educated."

We know that the academically bright in the OPs area are not in grammar schools. I can tell you that in many S London comps the top sets have a good mix of advantaged and less advantaged kids, all receiving a damn good education. So better to be a bright but poor kid in S London Compland than Kent Grammarland.

Funnily enough, my kids mixing wiith a diversity of other kids isn't about making me feel good or thinking that my mc high achieving kid helps others (that would be bloody patronising, given the 2 particular maths wizards in his class), it is because I think fair access to a school which offers the best to all and does not segregate is best for all of us. Best for society as a whole, whilst being no disadvantage to me. As I and others have also explained further down the thread.

Interesting for us as we can't afford tutoring but we have 3 degrees between us and I was a primary teacher.

On the downside DS is in one of the lowest performing schools in the area,bottom quintile for every thing.

Kind of hoping the positives out way the negatives.

Have to say having bought the How to books it is apparent how easy it is to DIY.I haven't had to "teach", dp (not a teacher)talks through the maths pages. Ds is very able at English and maths and does the vr himself.You could easily hand the books over and leave them to it.Some of the multiplication,division systems have involved dp going over areas as our school is still obsessed with gridding and sodding chunking.

Schools could easily do the above in an after school club and any bright child whatever the income could work their way through the books.They need to be given access.If a child couldn't work through the books themselves that is the fault of the primary school as they should be of a certain standard to consider even doing the exam.

Given today's Pisa results I think to be frank we should be questioning schools re standards for the pupil premium kids.The standards these kids are at in year 5 is more of an issue here.

Funnily enough, my kids mixing wiith a diversity of other kids isn't about making me feel good or thinking that my mc high achieving kid helps others (that would be bloody patronising, given the 2 particular maths wizards in his class), it is because I think fair access to a school which offers the best to all and does not segregate is best for all of us. Best for society as a whole, whilst being no disadvantage to me. As I and others have also explained further down the thread

Yes. A thousand times, yes!

Agreed.

THe fact that others in the school are not aiming for top unis has no impact on me expecting my kids to get there
but it DOES impact on their understanding of the world

DS hadn't covered some of the maths because it is year 6 stuff but he should have done imvho as he goes on maths G&T courses and is romping through it at home.

Both DH and I have university degrees - should we refuse to cast an eye over our DD's homework, because somewhere a child is struggling with homework who doesn't have graduate parents?

I agree with this and the rest of the examples given in the post.
I go further; Parents cant be accountable or expected to take responsibility for children as a whole, they can only be expected to take responsibility for their own children. If one parent chooses to prepare their child for 11+ and another parent chooses not to do so then the parent providing preparation shouldn't be made to feel guilty just because some other child isn't being given the same opportunities.
Some children to on expensive holidays, some don't.
Some children have their own bedroom, others don't.
Some children have a large loving extended family, others don't.
Some children have more opportunities provided for them than others.
It's just the way it is.

All children are equally important but we live in a society which enables some children to have more opportunities than others. I don't think scrapping grammar schools will raise academic standards for children in lower socioeconomic groups because (with the exception of London) cohorts at schools depend a lot on the demography of the area and house prices in good catchment areas are unaffordable for many.