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Original poster

For anyone who still thinks that access to selective state education is a level playing field.....

903 replies

curlew · 29/11/2013 12:18

I have just read the latest OfSTED for my dd's grammar school.

There are no children in Year 7 who are eligible for FSM. None. Not one.

OP posts:
rabbitstew · 02/12/2013 22:59

curlew - I have never seen a Value Added score differentiate between low, middle and high attainers. I've only ever seen one score for value added.

rabbitstew · 02/12/2013 23:02

straggle - do you really suppose that the closer an Englishman lives to France, the more he loves the French? Grin

teacherwith2kids · 02/12/2013 23:06

Rabbiy, the school by school data available from:

www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/

has it split down by ability levels, under KS4 progress.

DS's comp does marginally better for its high ability pupils (1019 or so) than it does by its middles (1016 or so), within an average of 1017, for example.

soul2000 · 02/12/2013 23:07

The assumption that because "DOVER IS NEAR FRANCE" French should be commonly spoken is like saying someone in Oswestry should speak Welsh.

teacherwith2kids · 02/12/2013 23:11

Dover Grammar does slightly better for its MA children (988) than for its HA ones (970): which raises the intriguing possiubility that grammars are not necessarily best for the children they are 'meant for' - the HA - but may in fact be of most value for those they normally exclude - the MA

Original poster
curlew · 02/12/2013 23:14

Low, middle and high attainers in the league tables are an absolute measure regardless of school. So (from memory) a point score of 24 or below makes you a low attainer, 24 -29.99 middle and over 30 high.

The grammar school in my OP has no low attainers, 4 middle and the rest high.

OP posts:
rabbitstew · 02/12/2013 23:14

Thanks, teacherwith2kids. I'm still not really sure what range of attainment counts as "high attaining" though.

rabbitstew · 02/12/2013 23:15

Are, sorry curlew, was typing while you posted. What does "over 30" actually mean, though?

teacherwith2kids · 02/12/2013 23:16

Sorry, having fun with data - the school I would send DS to if he had SEN has a MUCH higher VA (1007) for LA than it has for MA and HA children, with its VA for the

teacherwith2kids · 02/12/2013 23:18

Usual measure (of HA on entry to Y7, which is the reference point for the VA tables) used by the DfE and Ofsted is L5 and above.

Obviously if a significant proportion of the entry is actually L6, as explained in my earlier post about ceiling effects, the VA will be distorted...but then it is distorted the other way by the ceiling on GCSE levels...

soul2000 · 02/12/2013 23:19

Does a rating of 1007 mean that the school has 7 pupils who achieve a grade better than predicted. Therefore a score of 993 would mean 7 pupils did not achieve their targets?

straggle · 02/12/2013 23:20

soul I know they have some ancient by-law in Chester about the right to shoot a Welsh person after midnight with a bow and arrow within the city walls, but at least they know about it, joke about it, and some even know a few rude words in Welsh too Grin

teacherwith2kids · 02/12/2013 23:21

Rabbit, another link, this time on low, middle and high attainers:

www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/secondary_11/LMHattainers.pdf

Basically, L5 on entry = high, Level 4 = middle, Below L4 = low

teacherwith2kids · 02/12/2013 23:27

Rabbit and Curlew, the other interesting sideline in the VA scores on those DfE tables is the 'coverage' score. DS's comp has a coverage of 98% - ie 98% of the children had a KS2 score available for comparison.

A grammar school I looked at had a coverage of 80% - indicating that at least 20% of their intake came from schools that did not provide KS2 levels, probably private schools.

A school with a high migrant population would, of course, also have a low coverage %.

rabbitstew · 02/12/2013 23:27

Thanks, teacher.

Straggle - I think you'll find the relationship between Dover and its French neighbour is still at the less-jokey stage in its development. That's why most French people don't think they'll spend a jolly few days in Dover when they're over here.

Original poster
curlew · 02/12/2013 23:27

More fun with data. The grammar school in the OP has a VA of 1000.4, but an average point score on entry of 32.2. The associated secondary modern has a VA of 1028 and an average point score on entry of 24.7. Difficult to judge on that which is the "better" school- but many on here would look at that 24.7 and head for the hills!

OP posts:
rabbitstew · 02/12/2013 23:29

Asylum seekers often end up having a miserable time in Dover, though - one of the reasons why people in Dover don't have a great relationship with the French.

rabbitstew · 02/12/2013 23:29

Anyone for spending a few days in beautiful Calais? Grin

CaroBeaner · 02/12/2013 23:30

Soul, only if the average Owestry dweller might hugely improve their employment prospects by competing with the pesky welsh who use their bilingualism to take all the jobs on the Owestry - Cymandidnourggll bus.

rabbitstew · 02/12/2013 23:31

Well, if you can't tell how well as school is going to do by its high attainers, because the high attainers actually go to a different school, it's not surprising if you find it a slightly scary prospect for a high attaining child.

teacherwith2kids · 02/12/2013 23:32

Curlew, would be interesting to look at the VA for each ability level within both schools.

Original poster
curlew · 02/12/2013 23:36

Oh, I don't know, rabbitstew- it had 8 high attainers last year...........!

OP posts:
rabbitstew · 02/12/2013 23:37

How big is the school?!

pickledsiblings · 03/12/2013 01:25

What's going to happen to the value added data when NC levels are dispensed with?

The value added data is probably unreliable too so I wouldn't put too much store by it.

pickledsiblings · 03/12/2013 01:51

There is no denying that many MNers have experienced the less than desirable side of Comps. Why would people make this up? After all, it is the educational model that is freely available to all by and large.

My own (brief) experience as a teacher was not pretty. Certain undesirable behaviours were sanctioned (kids smoking on school premises between lessons), ridiculous amounts of help was given with coursework, an inordinate amount of time was spent daily phoning parents about their DC's behaviour, each day started with a slew of emails updating staff on the mood/disposition of certain troublesome individuals etc.etc. Kids walking around with 2L bottles of coke, munching away in lessons or putting make-up on...

This is a good Comp in an affluent market town.

The top set kids were impeccably behaved and did none of those things and had access to excellent teaching and learning but their was a tension in the corridors and the school had obviously taken steps to minimise this: three extended lessons per day; vertical tutoring; massive (literally all the big male teachers) supervision when whole year groups were together.

I am not making this stuff up.