For anyone who still thinks that access to selective state education is a level playing field.....

[curlew]

I have just read the latest OfSTED for my dd's grammar school.

There are no children in Year 7 who are eligible for FSM. None. Not one.

huge amount of state selective schools that select through catchment

Link to the evidence again and list of schools.

The most exclusive comprehensives select on faith criteria. It doesn't justify other forms of selection.

Of the 100 worst offending comprehensives on the basis of FSM, 69 have admissions criteria that are religiously selective

Kent is not the norm re the grammar system,you keep talking as if Kent speaks for all re the grammar experience.It doesn't.

Sutton have stated the most selective state schools aren't grammar schools.

Church,exorbitant catchment area,fees- what ever, parents select.

since most highly selective grammars (granted not all) select on VR, Maths and English ...I doubt you would get through of you are mediocre at either English or maths

Straggle I'm smiling at the though that you measure success in education by the output of politicians and bankers.

My friend's son is dire at English but G&T at maths,reads a lot too and he got in.His essay was littered with spelling mistakes,she knew as head a head in hands moment after when she got him to show her how he spelt words in his essay.He had no tutoring either.

If you are against grammars because they serve only the minority (even if they tend to be the most academic minority) then by progression you should be against any notion of RG unis or Oxbridge since they also select on superior academic ability ...let's stipulate that all unis should be comprehensive too. We might lose some centres of academic excellence because of the diffusive effect along the way, but hey ho....

Retropear

then the school he got into can't have been a superselective since there would be plenty ahead of him who would be extremely able at both ...as i said some grammars are more academic than others and some I am sure are mediocre perhaps more so than the best comps.

The South West is in that list and has grammar schools ,can't be arsed to check all the others but sure others do too.

Straggle - you may find that the results you have quoted for Kent is why they are looking to change the entrance exam ...

I dont think having a child tutored is showing an interest in their education ...surely its passing the buck.... if the child is bright and in a decent primary school then there should be no need for tutoring ... as parent you should be able to motivate your own child to sit down and do some workbooks if it is necessary... I remember my daughter's HT at lower school telling me that it didn't matter what school she went to because she would do well whether it was ...

In terms of cost - I'd rather spend £720 on enrichment activities...my daughter sails, ski's and rides and loves High Rope activities...last weekend we were away at an activity weekend she did team challenges and problem solving with other kids from 8 to 15 years old giving her early life skills...(£72 for the weekend - we could have enjoyed 10 of those for the cost of tutoring)

We could have afforded Independent School but decided that she would probably need the money more when she goes to Uni because the thought of studying and walking out with so much debt at 21/22 is a real concern...and that is where parenting comes in - looking ahead trying to give them the best possible start without having to worry about debt ...so she's at the VERY AVERAGE comprehensive and I'm more than happy with how the first term has gone so far ..I've already had 15 minutes with her form tutor - we have set goals together for the next term and its great that she is home at 3.30pm

Why shouldn't Kent illustrate the grammar system as it is one of only two or three counties that still operates that system? Are you making excuses for the monoglots at Dover grammar for boys (34% of 59% entered for MFL passed) despite the fact they live within daily commuting distance of France?

Nope it's an extremely good school(Outstanding etc),sponsors the local comp incidentally but not super selective.It's the one we're looking at.One twin will hopefully go to that and the other to the science specialist comp.Both fit them perfectly.Both want to do the exam but if science boy passes he may not take his place.Need to do more research as to best fit.

As I say Kent is by no means the blue print for all grammar schools.

the results you have quoted for Kent is why they are looking to change the entrance exam ...

This is a bit like the argument that communism didn't work because it wasn't true communism. The grammar test may be crap but they still have 85% or more high prior attainers. Unless that measure can't be valid because of the high numbers of unremarkable but well tutored prep school pupils entering the system?

Back to the OP - access to selective education monopolised by average rich kids?

really? Are there really that many prep schools kids in grammars? ...I don't think so, there will be a handful, a small minority, of course and why would there be some representation since there is no ban on them sitting for it and some them (surprise) might have a highly educational environment at home) ? But many who start in independent sector stay in there...secondly many prep school kids are so busy with other extra curricular stuff (music, drama, sport, Saturday school, then matches) that they are left with much less time than the average state school primary children to actually have the hours to prepare for 11+ ....it really is not black and white as everyone likes to paint it - i.e. prep school must mean automatic advantage for grammar selection. There are some parents who have stretched so far already on prep school fees they can't afford $$$ extra for two years 11+ tuition like some parents at state might do on the basis they saved on school fees. Many prep schools are not particularly academic and many esp. those that go to 13 don't prepare for the 11+ at all.

again it's like the tuition paranoia...you can only get into grammars if you've been privately tutored or been to a prep school...

Have posted this link several times before but:

2013 prep school figures Kent

2012 prep school figures

and how many actually went there (not just offered)? Out of how many places overall?

Kent also has a pretty high percentage of private schools, not sure if that skews the results or not.

Some of their grammars also do very well.

The PISA data and Chris Cook's data aren't particularly convincing - at least I'm not convinced by what they have to say.

What questions do we want answers to anyway? How to we improve outcomes for all DC? How do we improve outcomes for FSM DC?

I wonder how many at say Tiffin...come from prep schools...anyone know...?

i think people read what they want from selective stats to support generalisations and try and make things look black and white when it is grey.

They should also look at eg how many on those on FSM had parents who went to uni...of course there will be some, but I'll bet a lot more middle class children have parents that did ...then that comes down to home environment being one that fosters education rather than just looks at figures for who can afford tuition or private schools. I'll also bet how many books you have at home or what newspapers your parents read will also give you some interesting stats.

It's a big wide world outside of Kent

i confess knowing nothing about Kent ...but I am all for finding an 11+ exam that is not one that can be tutored for, so these arguments about being advantaged because you can pay to prep for it go away, though I suspect they never will.

and how many actually went there (not just offered)? Out of how many places overall?
Given in 2012 stats or performance tables - most seem to be 120-150 places.

Would be interested in Tiffin etc. too

What questions do we want answers to anyway? How to we improve outcomes for all DC? How do we improve outcomes for FSM DC?

Yes! I'd like to see a fairer system where the entire workforce becomes better skilled and more employable/entrepreneurial, not just the banking elite, so we can all have a nicer, caring but more prosperous and sustainable economy with lower employment competing globally not having to rely on imported talent (like our Bank of England governor).

London offers one solution - school improvement across the board like the City Challenge. It raised London schools from well below average to top performers within 5-7 years including the most deprived areas.

straggle...we agree on that ...a better system for all ...we just don't agree that abolishing the excellent schools be they private or grammar is the way to do it ...I would prefer the bottom rung is pulled up to level the playing field rather than pull the top down

stop calling it selective and rename it segregated

and then remember that it includes schools that only allow Muslim Boys or Sikh girls or Roman Catholic boys or Jewish Girls

and THEN tell me that segregating those kids away from their peers is a good thing