Is Tinsley House a lot of old codswallop then?

[MerryMarigold]

Interested in this. Based on another thread. A couple of people inwardly groaning (or outwardly!) at the mention of it.

I have read the books, but not progressed to any assessment. Ds1 has some 'issues' which are nor obviously anything in particular but reading about other kids and a lot on here, it is fairly clear - auditory processing, dyspraxia, dyslexia, sensory processing overload, difficulty focussing/ concentrating. The auditory has been diagnosed by an OT, the rest have not. He should have started The Listening Programme but it has been delayed. The other (potential) issues are not being dealt with at all.

These issues he has then have a huge social and emotional impact. I have been desperately rummaging around for help and solutions since the end of YR when things got very bad for him.

Where I agree with the Tinsley House is that there must be a common root to all this, and a therefore a common treatment. Rather than dealing with symptoms, is it not better to address a cause. Where I am not sure is that I am not an expert at all in any of this stuff. Is it just a load of made-up stuff which is trading on parents' concerns?

I have significantly changed ds1's diet and added in Tinsley House suggested supplements and seen significant improvement in him this term. I don't know if this would have happened anyway. It certainly didn't happen during Y2 and there was actually some decline in how he was doing academically.

I just want to hear the pros and cons, really. Here's an invitation.

Shootingatpigeons - yes of course it's bad science that TH is spouting. If you think most parents who use TH will then wholesale reject any mainstream support for their children and claim that their children don't actually have dyslexia, dyspraxia, ADHD or aspergers when they clearly do, I think you're being a bit paranoid, though. You can't dictate to others what interventions to help their children they should and shouldn't believe in, or tell others that because you eventually managed to access mainstream support for your fairly classic-sounding dyspraxic/dyslexic brain wiring (you might have done, if it was that obvious that you got a diagnosis - not so easy for those who don't tick enough boxes), that this will definitely work for all people - after all, that's what you don't like TH telling people!

There is most definitely a market out there for children who have issues that tick a lot of boxes for various conditions but which are not diagnosably dyspraxia, or dyslexia, or ADHD, or aspergers - a market that is in no way going to get access to intensive help improving diet, core stability, body awareness, co-ordination, tolerance to sounds, etc, unless it pays for it or works it out for itself. And lo and behold, there is TH, offering a sort of one-stop shop for advice on dietary improvements, offering exercises that might help with core stability, co-ordination and body awareness, maybe even eye tracking, and offering activities that might improve tolerance to sound, etc, etc.

School refer to EP but they only have a limited of visits per year for the service they have subscribed to. However, if they need an EP more or faster they can always either up their subscription, buy an additional visit or commission an independent EP.

Rabbit in the ten years since my DDs were first diagnosed Ed Psychs have become noticeably better at recognising that no one fits into a neat label and indeed the labels have been tightened up. Neither of my DDs would be given a neat "Dyslexia" or "Dyspraxia" label any more though having got the label the Ed Psych thinks it is better to stick with it for the purposes of managing school etc. Now they refer to them as "spiky" and it is the precise contrast between their ability and not just their attainment in literacy but the different aspects of their memory and processing skills as well as issues with disorganisation, poor coordination, sensory overload etc. that has been highlighted for us. I know some people have issues with EdPsych reports but at the centre run by a specialist charity that we use they have been really helpful.

A one stop shop OK but dressed up as a magical cure?

merry yes I can totally empathise with the desire but putting my money into the hands of someone who makes exaggerated claims, and he is far from the only one out there, no. He may not actually be a conscious con man but, frankly, he could be.

My DD is now 18 and she just got 4As in her AS levels, with 100% in her philosophy but she isn't cured, she has just been enabled to achieve her potential. From making sure she didn't dive off climbing frames because she didn't understand that down was more dangerous than up, to making sure she had home cooked organic food and EPA supplements, to finding exercise and activities that she could enjoy in spite of her clumsiness and would help her coordination and balance (and she is still like an over exuberant puppy falling over herself all the time, alcohol is now a dangerous added ingredient), to the tedious hours spent practising letter formation and phonics in a recommended programme in Year 2, to listening to her problems with the cool characters who ridiculed her difference, to mopping up the sick when strong smells have made her gag again, to cuddling her when she is exhausted with the effort of holding it all together for the whole school day, to checking her homework diary and helping her organise herself and her work, to fighting for her extra time in exams in the face of Gove's idiocy, to helping her with conceptual trees and mind maps on which to hang all the stuff she has had to learn for exams and be able to retrieve it, to the cuddling, counselling and hypnotherapy for the panic exams induce for her. I could go on endlessly with all it has taken and I totally empathise with how daunting it feels when you start to realise that your child is facing all this, and of course you hope that there is a simple cause and easy solution, but I don't begrudge a moment of it because she is a funny clever caring adult who is full of empathy for others and is at last popular for all those qualities (and the fact that you can give her a History essay question and she will immediately spot the trends and patterns that will enable you to answer it)

Good luck with whatever your choices are

starlight we are singing off the same hymn sheet.

Shooting. So which Ed Psych/ centre did you use? Maybe we will go down this route...I don't think school will refer. He is not bad enough, and would never get statemented. We live in an area with very, very high special needs due to particular demographics.

The Helen Arkyll Dyslexia Centre www.arkellcentre.org.uk

Thanks shooting. I guess they specialise in dyslexia, but do they also diagnose other things then?

I think you would have to talk to them, as I said upthread my DDs previous assessment focused on her literacy problems, and her problems with memory and processing, and it was the most recent assessor who decided to test for Dyspraxia and found she has dyspraxic traits as well. To be honest coming from a family where Dyslexia has been such a big part of our lives for 40 years, my brother was very severely affected, we were ourselves a bit caught up in the traditional label. I was aware my daughter was a clutz, can smell a rat from ten miles away (we called her "the nose") etc and pursued finding her activities that would help her with coordination out of instinct, and was told poor coordination and motor control were dyslexic traits as well. Once the Ed Psych had highlighted it and we read up on the symptoms of dyspraxia, it was a bit of a Eureka moment, and when I showed it to my brother and niece and it all made sense to them too. DD feels it has really helped her, especially knowing the awkwardness in social situations, reading the signals, is a typical problem too. However I think Rabbit is entirely right the labels really do cover a ragbag of different issues and Ed Psychs are coming to understand that. In a way the labels have come to be a. too all encompassing and b. the focus of stereotypes which is why presumably the Ed Psych profession now define Dyslexia much more tightly. I agree it is a minefield getting the right help but for us, even if I wish we had had a more formal diagnosis of the Dyspraxis earlier, the Ed Psych was definitely a key.

I don't think generalisations are helpful, to be honest. Some schools give poor provision. Some schools do not deliver TEACCH well. Some ABA providers are inflexible and dogmatic. Some children benefit from TH.

I agree, a GOOD Ed Psych report is a wonderful thing. Unfortunately, however, there are still plenty of ed psychs out there, particularly those with an incentive not to spend non-existent LA money, who neither want to give labels nor to do anything about things that indicate a spiky profile, rather than a specific label. There really are plenty of ed psychs who haven't bothered to keep up to date on WHAT can now be done for specific learning difficulties, particularly ones that are not dyslexia... And there is in general far too little effective communication between the medical profession and the teaching profession, where advice from the two disciplines sometimes overlaps (as it tends to with what start out being seen as developmental delays); far too little sharing of knowledge and expertise between paediatricians, psychologists, OTs, PTs, SLTs etc, in many areas of the country. Even when they get together in child development centres, these people often seem incapable of communicating effectively with each other to come up with effective, co-ordinated and genuine help. Frankly, I think most of them are too swamped with work to actually co-ordinate anything.

Agreed and the extent of the knowledge of SpLDs in the teaching profession is also inadequate. Yes some teachers do understand, or take the trouble to research specific problems, are able to spot untapped potential and give their pupils the confidence and tools to work hard and overcome their problems but each of my DDs can probably count those on the fingers of one hand, we have had teachers come out with all sorts of prejudices misapprehensions including saying my DDs were "cured" so it isn't just TH who claim amazing things .....

My niece's friends completed their teacher training five years ago and they have had a total of one hours formal training in SpLDs AND ASD. Of course knowing my niece they have bothered to find out for themselves but they had the motivation. Apparently proper training is supposed to come post QTS but under Gove that is no longer a given. It was a NQT that almost torpedoed my DDs A level choices because he decided she wasn't capable of A level Philosophy

In the face of this it really isn't surprising that there are so many people in the market to meet the needs of anxious parents for support, both genuine and dubious.

I agree the level of training in schools is really poor. We were lucky to generally have very good teachers for both of our children, and when it came to ds they were in general incredibly generous toward him and even though he must have driven them around the bend at times we still got he impression that they liked and cared about him. Things like his incessant fiddling (I remember having quite a chat about his flipping of rulers and rubber bands at one parent evening, where they were very gentle with him - at my school at his age I would have had things thrown at me/been sent out for punishment). Or his terrible tantrums that they managed by figuring out the best incentive was time in the quiet room.

Where we hit problems was with the SENCO who had I think just enough knowledge to be dangerous, and was convinced that not only was ds autistic, but I was too. She was very unimpressed when we had a private EdPsych report which confirmed our suggestion of dyslexia (actually it was much more like the 'spikiness' described below) and told us very tartly that he would get no help for his reading/writing problems and would continue in her social communications group (playing with puppets which he enjoyed greatly, so I didn't object!).

On the other hand the social communications expert that came to see ds's teacher and suggested all sorts of whole class interventions was just great. As was the school nurse that noticed his long sightedness, missed by two optician appointments. Or the physio that pointed out ds's clumsiness and lack of core stability strongly correlated to his growth spurts and would settle over time.

Doctors can and DO label illness with the latest fad if they cant be bothered to investigate properly; I myself have been fighting for nearly 14 years to get a "DVT" entry deleted from my medical records that was put there by a doctor who was in a hurry and didnt want to do the follow-up and diagnose the real problem. I have been left with a life-long chronic condition due to his corner cutting.

Aspergers isn't an illness.

I'm sorry about your experience but no GP in the UK can diagnose ASD or other neurological developmental conditions.

I can't say I know of anyone, in this country, who has experience a diagnosis of ASD or aspergers being given in a hurry. The more common experience is that it takes far too long. The diagnosis for each of my boys involved over half a dozen professionals.

Gentlegiant would you care to elucidate on the opinions / attitudes that are manifested in your post, because you appear to be manifesting that you believe children are being diagnosed with SpLDs and ASD because it is a fad . I cannot speak as well for ASD though I have seen scans that demonstrate the physiological differences. However the latest research suggests that around 10% of the population suffer from some form of learning difficulty. It isn't an illness, it is a problem with the way your brain is wired which affects the way in which you learn. It is tested for via tests of ability, attainment, working memory and processing etc etc which have been developed over many years, indeed my brother was diagnosed in the 1960s. There has been an increase in diagnosis but only because teachers and parents have become better at understanding the symptoms and getting a diagnosis, via specialists in special educational needs in schools or an Educational Psychologist. That means that pupils are being enabled via coping strategies and the use of different teaching styles to achieve their potential when in the past they would have been effectively excluded from the education system, even labelled slow and stupid, even though they may have considerable ability and potential. There are many high profile examples, Richard Branson etc.www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/about-dyslexia/famous-dyslexics.html There are no medical or pharmacological solutions. A GP would only get involved if there were other physiological or psychological problems that required medical intervention for instance my GP has been involved with my DD because she has broken bones in strange situations (eg just letting go of a flying fox because of her coordination problems and failure to perceive that a drop is a danger) and because of problems with panic attacks in the run up to public exams, and has provided excellent support, understanding perfectly well the underlying issues.

Your post didn't seem to have the benefit of much investigation

And yes, as we have discussed below, far from being a fad, we are still far from ensuring that every pupil who would benefit from a diagnosis and support actually getting that help.

I have had experience of working with two children who were labelled and being treated for ADHD* when in reality the problem was not with the child but with pushy/bad parents; and another as noted, who was transformed from a children labelled as SEN - with various learning difficulties - into a normal (if boisterous) child with normal (if slightly delayed) educational advancement within a year of having the hearing implants.

*The one was "cured" of disruptive and bad behaviour by being told by his school that he would no longer be able to day board because of his behaviour.

*The other was basically copying his parents behaviour during a long drawn out messy divorce.

I am NOT saying this is common, I have in the last 30 years met with and helped a number of children with genuine physical, psychological and mental problems, but some doctors/professionals WILL give what the parents want - just to get them out of their hair.

Then as you can read in various threads on this forum, not all of the doctors actually know what they are talking about; I have a (very) rare illness and I keep more up to date with new treatment/study developments than my Haematologist - who has to be aware of a much wider subject area. More than once he has pooh-poohed something I have said, then had to come back to me 6-18 months later and admit I was correct - Worcestershire NHS has only recently implemented a national genome registry program that I highlighted to him over 2 years ago - no-one in the Haematology department knew anything about it.

You're talking bollocks. A child cannot be diagnosed as having SEN by a doctor. Only an educational professional and it is an appropriate 'label' for a child who is struggling at school even during for a short time whilst those needs and subsequent provision I.e implants are been worked out.

I sincerely hope you're no longer in a position to damage children and their families with you attitude and your ignorance. You can't cure neurological difficulties even if you can force masked difficulties with threats and significant cost to the child.

On the subject of TH I cannot fault it so far. The change in my ds has been remarkable. I did not go there looking for a magical cure to make my child normal what I wanted was some help in assessing and addressing the many symptoms my ds was presenting with.

We tried the NHS, gp, camhs route and quite frankly have been laughed at and let down so badly I do not think I can put my child or my family through that again. They have point blank refused to acknowledge the PDA characteristics he so clearly has. There has been no assessment of his sensory issues and they refused point blank a referral to a paediatrician.

To go from having a four year old child that would quite often say he didn't want to exist or live in his head anymore because it was all wrong to a child that is a lot calmer and able to enjoy simple things like music and singing is more than I could ever have asked for. To see the difference in his balance and ability to do simple physical activities like playing at the park and playing football, it is sometimes like seeing a different boy.

We are fully aware that he is always going to be different and that is not a bad thing. I believe he is wired differently for want of a better phrase and as such his perception of the world is always going to be different and no treatment is going to or should 'cure' that. Essentially what I think we are getting with TH is an improvement overall to his ability to process and communicate his thoughts, emotions, environment etc.

I dread to think where we would be now if we had not gone to TH when we did :(

I think gentles post is plain odd. I dread to think of someone with such a muddled perspective ever having been involved with children. Sadly though a lot of people's share his muddled prejudices / stereotypes especially if they read the Daily Mail. It is why Gove unfairly moved the goalposts on access to special arrangements in exams because of course the increasing number of pupils entitled to them was the result of pushy parents and Ed Psychs handing out a diagnosis to anyone who wanted one as opposed to more of the pupils entitled to support actually getting it more crowd pleasing politics

Goose and Pidgeon need to read my original posts again, I did not say Aspergers is diagnosed on a whim, I said SOME doctors will diagnose a child with the latest fad if the parents harass them hard enough. When ADHD became big news every school I visit suddenly had badly behaved children being diagnosed and given lithium - and in many of the cases the Lithium did nothing - go figure out how many of those were genuine ADHD sufferers and how many were doctors looking for an easy way out of telling a parent it was their fault.

I didnt give an Asbergers example, because I dont currently have one I am confident is not Aspergers, although the child with the hearing implants was assessed prior to the implants, I never got to hear the outcome.

As for knowing what it is - yes I do, I had the task of dealing with a whole family with it a few years ago - it was very depressing trying to get parents with obvious Aspergers to understand they and their children needed help.
I still see them at one of the schools I visit at least once each week - and it is obvious from the way the teachers behave that the problem is ongoing and the parents are still not co-operating and allowing specialists to help.

PS I am not a specialist, but having worked with children since the early 1980s I have seen and heard an awful lot from all sides of many medical situations, some of it good, some of it bad and some of it obvious bullship.

When I started I only had serious concerns about the home life and development of one child in my care, these days I have concerns about roughly 1/3rd of them; with OFSTED pushing more and more of the Social/Health Workers jobs onto underpaid, under-qualified nursery staff, that will only get worse.

PS, I dont read the Daily Fail, I read Private Eye - and a lot of specialist online forums.

I went to TH with DS once and would maybe consider going again (if only because the code for my sons computer exercise has changed and I don't have the new one!). But I'm not convinced there is anything overly special about it, relative to what others would advise. My views may be a bit less enthused because we were already doing most of the stuff he talked about anyway (certainly in diet/pure vitamin terms), so we only had to add the basics (steps, toothbrushng, where's wally exercises). And I found that the physical things were no more off the wall than the stuff that my dyspraxia-specialist OT had recommended (indeed, I would say that rolling my son up in a rug then placing an exercise ball on top and leaning on him is far more extreme than anything TH came up with).
I think there is a whole smorgasbord of experience that can help children with the things TH treats. And I think that extending the stuff your kids can naturally do into more sensory experiences is perhaps more natural. My son rides horses and waterskis and surfs and plays the sax and does a whole shed load of stuff that he ought to find difficult, and all of it seems to help keep him 'centred' and I am sure these activities help him far more than the sensory diet stuff we do, or the food diet we follow. And we save our money for really top-notch specialist stuff - eg if you need to see a behavioural optometrist for example, you may as well save up and go find the best BO, that's sensible money spend to me, whereas I'm not sure that TH gives the best bang for your buck.
TH might be the missing piece in your personal jigsaw, it might not. I don't think he's harmful in any way, and his holistic mix pProbably makes him a good 'one stop shop'. But I don't think he's a magician.