Prep school children at a disadvantage

[slickrick]

When taking the 11+ for independent schools compared to state school children according to the admissions lady at a top independent school. Children in independent schools are not prepped for the 11+ only the 13+ what is the point in going private if this is the case? I was under the impression private schools were at least a year ahead of state schools.

I don't understand why people seem to regard "private schools" as an amorphous mass. They range from socially exclusive top preps, incredibly pushy academic top preps, tiny schools where children run riot in lovely grounds, Miss Joyful's School for the Children of Distressed Gentlefolk.........the list goes on and on. Some will be wildly ahead of the state system. Some wildly behind.

There are basic things that you can expect from a state school and you have a right to demand. Private? Caveat Emptor.

I'm wondering where OP is.

Because if the admissions person really said and intended what is reported, then I suspect there is only one private prep in the area and it's not that good.

curlew good post. Impossible to compare state and private at this level where state primaries non-selective and follow a different curriculum. With the new Level 6 some state primaries are clearly well ahead of others, and probably privates too, but your child might not be. Privates don't even publish these results.

Depends what you mean by ahead. Because dd was in a prep focussing on Common Entrance including those London day schools which look for 70/75% across the board, she had had a lot of subject teaching: science, latin, french etc and so was ahead not only of state school pupils but of pupils coming from 11+ schools. In practice this meant she had an easy Yr7 whereas others had to work very hard, but it evened out quite quickly.

The lasting advantage for her has been the boost to her confidence. It could have gone the other way and she could have complacent.

I have a friend who's head of year 7 in a grammar school. She says that generally private school children know more stuff! but state school kids are better at finding stuff out.

I think private school pupils CAN be '2 years ahead' in Science, History, Geography, French, Spanish, RE, even DT as most prep schools aim to provide a balanced, well-rounded education and not 'teach to the test'. Prep schools are usually very successful in finding the 'right' school at 13+ (and 11+) but if your child is only 'average' at his prep school then he's probably not going to get into a 'top' school at 11 or 13; not when there are so many bright (and privately tutored) children from both sectors sitting the exams. When I read comments about private school pupils taking all the grammar school places it makes me smile - it's probably got less to do with the private school and more to do with the fact that these children come from well-educated, motivated families, they've inherited 'clever' genes and they've worked bloody hard (tutoring, practice papers, whatever) in their SPARE TIME to get there! I'm afraid it's a very competitve world out there if you're looking at 'top of the league table' schools (both sectors) but in the OP's case there are scores of independent senior schools (at 11+) offering an excellent education with a much less pressured entrance exam.

I am just gobsmacked that anyone pays 3 times over for their dcs education. Firstly through their taxes, then private school fees and finally a tutor to top up. Ds attends a village primary, we are paying for private tuition for the 11+. At least 50% of his tutor group are at prep schools. Talking about having a dog and barking yourself.

It's also important to remember that you can't get more than an A* at GCSE, so being 2 years ahead isn't really a huge advantage in the long term........

It depends on how good the state primary is (the standard seems to vary greatly) - at least a quarter of the year group at ds2's prep came out of the state sector because the parents weren't happy with the standard of education provided or because of class disruption and low level bullying.

Yep- state schools differ too.

I think that's why many of the 'better' schools (private and state) dislike GCSEs Curlew - an A/A* these days doesn't necessarily mean you know very much outside the exam syllabus!

curlew I was going to make the same point. I have heard from several teachers at indie secondary schools that private school pupils know more when they arrive but the state school pupils soon catch up because they have been taught to learn, rather than having been forcefed knowledge.

It is a mistake to think our DCs are in some horse race and it is important to be first across the finishing line. The selective indies, or at least the ones my DDs sat for, are interested in potential not how crammed the pupils are. They go out of their way to set entrance exams that test ability not just stuff.

I think OP may encounter the problem several friends who had boys at preps that went to 13. When they tried to sit 11+ entry, as well as resistance from the Heads, they encountered an unofficial restrictive practise which saw the indie secondaries not offering them places, since they were offered places at 13 it was clearly to do with some sort of gentle men's agreement between Heads. Understandable that the Secondary Heads can't afford to piss off the prep school Heads.......

Depends on your prep! We are in a grammar area and it is some years since most local preps when on till 13. Parents want, schools provide , and the independent secondaries have an intake at 11+ and a small intake at 13+ (mostly late transfers from state schools). THis is obviously because TBH the implied desired educational route is prep to grammar.

How can anyone generalize ...like a notion that prep schools pupils in general are "force-fed knowledge" ...and state school pupils are not. Surely that depends on the particular school and even then in most cases the particular teacher.

Agree with curlew - the prep schools are a vast range...some are like country clubs for the young where lots of lovely facilities, drama and sports are to the fore and pupils go to a wide variety of senior schools, some of which may be academic, some more sporty and laid-back, depending on how your child turns out, others are main feeders for schools like Westminster and St Paul's that have some of that but will which will focus very heavily on academic achievement and will have also pre-selected at 7 since main aim of the majority of the parents will be to get their DCs into those superselective indy senior school and prepare them well enough for the pre-tests at 11 and the 70% pass at 13+. These children may well be ahead for all those reasons.

The Common Entrance prep may set you up well for GCSE I guess because of the rigour of having to do formal pre-GCSE exams means you do some serious work in year 8 especially when the pass marks or scholarship levels are are high for entry into a top senior schools, so their level reached is good spring board for next stage of pre-GCSE.

I also try to counter any forcefeeding that may be going on in teaching to the test at school ...by make sure DS does a little bit of his own research online or by reading at home on certain important topics he has to learn especially if the teaching has been a bit dry and asking him to question things and think about the different angles.

Surely there're is a MASSIVE difference between the destination schools of a selective prep and a non-selective prep?
Just as state primaries are non selective while many prep schools are very selective?
No amount of private education can get a middle or lower ability child into a super-selective, surely?

And if so, then it is a scandal.

Yes Blu but not all parents choose academically selective preps at 5 or 7 even if their children that are or will turn out academic especially outside London where selective preps are rarer...also they may prefer less hot-housey atmosphere at least at prep stage.

These academic children will be in top sets though and may still aim (and do get in) for top senior schools like Eton or Winchester ...take for example Summer Fields, Papplewick etc. (I think latter got two Kings Scholarships to Eton this year) ...though there more be more variety of final school destinations (including to the less academic) than some of the London schools who selected academically at 7 +

Sorry that should read 2 KS in 2012 and one in 2013 for Papplewick. Summer Fields got 19 boys into Eton and 7 into Winchester last year. These prep schools do an "assessment" like most prep schools in admissions process but it's not like the super-competitive 7+ or 8+ for Colet Court or WUS which many people in London seem to get tutors for.

Amber from what I have seen of the 13+ entrance papers for schools like St. Paul's there really can't be much they need to do to prepare them for GCSE. My DD was in lower sixth doing A level Maths when she helped a friends son with Maths for the St Paul's exam and there were things on the paper she didn't cover until Upper Sixth. I think the competition must have driven the standard well past GCSE.

I obviously take your point about the variation in preps but those comments come from teachers at very selective London day schools, perhaps it is in the nature of the ridiculous rat race that exists, possibly more in response to parental anxiety than the demands of the exams. My DDs experienced 11+ from two different school backgrounds, one from an international Primary that was the equivalent of an outstanding primary here, with some DIY tutoring to cover the bits of the curriculum she hadn't yet covered at school, and one from a private prep where she basically spent the last year, bar the final few months, doing endless repeat practise papers. I know which educational experience I would rather repeat. And actually my older daughter was the one who got into the more selective schools, because she is the more able.

yes I think scholarship exams at some of these top senior schools will well take you past GCSE level also and even some 13+ exams where they are the school's own in certain academically elite schools

Wishi...a lot of prep schools do not prepare for 11+ esp. if for state selectives ...or they only give it a passing glance ..esp. VR and NVR, I imagine that's why you are finding the children from prep schools there.

Caveat Emptor indeed!

I know PLENTY of kids from state primaries who sailed into super-selective top London day schools at 11 plus. I can imagine this is quite galling to parents who'd bust a gut and paid a fortune to send children through the prep system to boost their chances. To be crude, you can't polish a turd. The best children in both systems will win through.

' To be crude, you can't polish a turd. '

What a lovely expression to use of a child.

areyouthere Not galling at all, just wish we had been lucky enough to have been offered a place in a decent state primary. It might surprise you to know just how many children are in London Preps because of the shortage of places in good state primary schools (actually in our borough the shortage of places in any state primary especially if you are not prepared to sit in a pew every Sunday to get in), not because they were paying a fortune to boost their chances....... As I say I would far rather my DD had not spent two years being crammed and prepped, and having her confidence and enthusiasm undermined by the constant testing and ranking, in a private prep. I strongly suspect some of that approach is actually self defeating. You are quite right the senior schools are looking for potential and ability, regardless of whether they come from a Prep or state.